Aug 1st RallyX @ OCS

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:55 pm

Michael Czeiszperger wrote:

I was checking the race results from Aug., and noticed both Foresters came in ahead of this really fast looking car:

Look even closer and you'll see all the 2WD (or 1WD in our case) came in ahead of the 4WD ones too.

I mentioned to Colin at the starting line that he wasn't lauching that car correctly...no wheel spin at all. If you have a 4WD and want to learn how, ask Mark in the blue wagon. A second here, and a second there all add up at the end of the day.

IIRC Michael, your Subaru is an auto though correct?

Michael Czeiszperger · **Joined:** Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:35 am **Posts:** 861

Vincent Keene wrote:

Look even closer and you'll see all the 2WD (or 1WD in our case) came in ahead of the 4WD ones too.

Yup, I did notice that. Strange but true. What are most of the 4WD street tire drivers doing wrong, other than not launching correctly? You'd think having some traction from more tires would be a help in the dirt!

The other thing I noticed is the actual tires in the 2WD "street tire" class did not look like street tires to me. Not even close.

Quote:

If you have a 4WD and want to learn how, ask Mark in the blue wagon.

I was going to ask Kevin Allan to ride along and give some tips, but it wasn't at the last event. Are you talking about Mark Hoerath? Or is there another Mark?

Quote:

IIRC Michael, your Subaru is an auto though correct?

Yup, its an automatic transmission.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:02 pm

Michael Czeiszperger wrote:

What are most of the 4WD street tire drivers doing wrong, other than not launching correctly? You'd think having some traction from more tires would be a help in the dirt!
The other thing I noticed is the actual tires in the 2WD "street tire" class did not look like street tires to me.

Even with street tires you need some wheel spin on the launch. Obviously there is a point of too much, but you do need some. If you have an auto (sorry for you) you're at a real disadvantage from the start...literally.

Actually our street tires are 'real' street tires, but there are better ones to have. The Dunlop SP-60 has proven to be the best, which quite of few people (including us) run.

Michael Czeiszperger wrote:

Are you talking about Mark Hoerath?

Yes, that Mark. Since Keith Veil quit running his old Legacy I've seen nobody besides Mark, Kevin, and Dustin launch a 4WD the right way consistently.

Michael Czeiszperger · **Joined:** Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:35 am **Posts:** 861

Vincent Keene wrote:

If you have an auto (sorry for you) you're at a real disadvantage from the start...literally.

Well, I could always use left foot breaking to get the revs up before launch, but as a beginning I've got other things to worry about, and besides, stomping on the gas seems to produce quite a bit of wheel spin...

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:10 pm

Michael Czeiszperger wrote:

Well, I could always use left foot breaking to get the revs up before launch, but as a beginning I've got other things to worry about, and besides, stomping on the gas seems to produce quite a bit of wheel spin...

Again, watch Mark sometimes. Granted he has rally tires, but it you don't spin your tires at all you're leaving time on the table.

Even in our 1WD car with 71whp, we make sure to get wheel spin and modulate it before shifting to 2nd gear.

Also if you can afford it (they were cheap for our car) buy some Dunlop SP-60s. I promise you will no be dissapointed. The more narrow, the better BTW.

Les Davis · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:04 pm **Posts:** 2059

Vincent Keene wrote:

Yes, that Mark. Since Keith Veil quit running his old Legacy I've seen nobody besides Mark, Kevin, and Dustin launch a 4WD the right way consistently.

You don't think I launch properly? I think I come off the line pretty hard at least when its dry little bit of wheel spin to build the boost. Maybe spinning too much? You haven't really mentioned anything to me about it.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:31 pm

Les Davis wrote:

Vincent Keene wrote:

Yes, that Mark. Since Keith Veil quit running his old Legacy I've seen nobody besides Mark, Kevin, and Dustin launch a 4WD the right way consistently.

You don't think I launch properly? I think I come off the line pretty hard at least when its dry little bit of wheel spin to build the boost. Maybe spinning too much? You haven't really mentioned anything to me about it.

I said 'consistently'...which to be fair you've not had much practice at. I was not trying to criticize anyone in particular, just trying to help Michael as a newbie tp understand what some of us had tp learn the hard way.

jeremy gast · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:57 pm

i know i do not launch my car as hard as i should. Maybe this winter i can change out the mounts to get rid of the movement then impress Vincent!!!

RichardNuss · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:57 pm

Vincent Keene wrote:

Michael Czeiszperger wrote:

I was checking the race results from Aug., and noticed both Foresters came in ahead of this really fast looking car:

Look even closer and you'll see all the 2WD (or 1WD in our case) came in ahead of the 4WD ones too.

But what would the times have looked like if the 2WD cars had to run the muddy morning course first *before* the AWD cars ran it? The overall results would have looked like they did at the May OCS race: http://www.thscc.com/rallycross/events/ ... verall.pdf

Not trying to say anything AWD vs FWD, but in addition to driving technique, the track order does make a difference, especially when wet.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:00 pm

RichardNuss wrote:

Not trying to say anything AWD vs FWD, but in addition to driving technique, the track order does make a difference, especially when wet.

But I thought 4WD was supposed to be more better and stuff?

Edit: I take your point Richard. You beat me by 0.37 seconds on the afternoon course ..in a 4WD car with rally tires...congrats! :wink:

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:04 pm

jeremy gast wrote:

i know i do not launch my car as hard as i should. Maybe this winter i can change out the mounts to get rid of the movement then impress Vincent!!!

Yes, impressing me should be your priority! :lol:

On a street-tired 4WD you obviously can't get as much out of the launch as Mark does with the rally tires, but if you leave the line like you would at a stoplight...you're doing it wrong.

Jeremy I would classify your launches as 'not that bad'.

jeremy gast · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:10 pm

i do that. that is how i roll!!!!! alteast in the forester. I know i have let you down there are no jumps!!!! My son still reminds me that you called me out at the bmw farm!!!

Vincent Keene wrote:

jeremy gast wrote:

irally tires, but if you leave the line like you would at a stoplight...you're doing it wrong.

Jeremy I would classify your launches as 'not that bad'.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:15 pm

jeremy gast wrote:

i do that. that is how i roll!!!!! alteast in the forester. I know i have let you down there are no jumps!!!! My son still reminds me that you called me out at the bmw farm!!!

You guys got some serious air that time! The General is better suited for the ground I think. It keeps our fender liners intact...oh wait, we don't have any.

RichardNuss · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:30 pm

Vincent Keene wrote:

RichardNuss wrote:

Not trying to say anything AWD vs FWD, but in addition to driving technique, the track order does make a difference, especially when wet.

But I thought 4WD was supposed to be more better and stuff?

I don't think 4WD is always better. I *do* think that lighter is better, and that is a plus for FWDs, and definitely shows on a dry track.

BTW - on a serious note (and we can take it to another thread if we don't need to "hijack" this one) - what are the specs on the General? Like better struts/springs or anything, or all stock? And how often do you guys have to fix stuff on it? For a car that is driven so hard so often, I am always impressed when watching it in action. Is it really as reliable as it seems, or is there more work that goes on "behind the scenes" to keep it going?

Stephen Westerfield · **Posted:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:46 pm

RichardNuss wrote:

Vincent Keene wrote:

RichardNuss wrote:

Not trying to say anything AWD vs FWD, but in addition to driving technique, the track order does make a difference, especially when wet.

But I thought 4WD was supposed to be more better and stuff?

I don't think 4WD is always better. I *do* think that lighter is better, and that is a plus for FWDs, and definitely shows on a dry track.

BTW - on a serious note (and we can take it to another thread if we don't need to "hijack" this one) - what are the specs on the General? Like better struts/springs or anything, or all stock? And how often do you guys have to fix stuff on it? For a car that is driven so hard so often, I am always impressed when watching it in action. Is it really as reliable as it seems, or is there more work that goes on "behind the scenes" to keep it going?

It's pretty much stock. KYB GR2's with stock springs. Oil changed once a year. Air filter gets cleaned out every couple events. In the 5+ year it has been running, it has broken once and that was a CV joint that had been clicking for quite some time. Loves to be rode hard and put up wet.

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