THSCC Forums

1. Rulings needed from VPs for future events

A. Car stopping on course for unsafe conditions:

IMO the VPs need a rule about this -- we need to allow a person to stop if a dust cloud causes an unsafe conditon (think hitting courseworkers, not being able to see red flags) but it NEEDS to be something that cannot be abused.

IMO the rule should be written down and summarized at the driver's meeting something like -- if a dust cloud completely (100%) obscures your vision and you cannot see the nearest corner worker station, and you feel unsafe, stop the car. If staff present in the bus agree that it was a justified stoppage you will be granted a rerun. T&S may consult the corner worker stations to verify that their line of sight to the car was completely blocked. If vision was not totally obscured you will not be given a rerun.

Note that some people consider that "you don't get a rerun if you're obscured by your own dust cloud". I still think that at this level, if a worker station cannot see the car due to dust, we need to allow a driver to stop. It's not safe.

B. Red flag for mechanical problem

When a car has a flat tire on course, it's a safety problem right? Is that why we red flag cars with flats, or on fire, etc?

If we are going to stop a car for a mechanical we need to set in stone what the rules are for whether they get a rerun. IMO, I don't think that a mechanical red flag merits a rerun. Mechanical problems are part of prep and part of the game.

Here is a possibility - get "meatball" flags to *warn* drivers of mechanical damage so they can continue the run at a moderate pace (of their choosing) and try to navigate to the finish. Just like a real rally

2. Laser heads in dusty conditions

Note to alll Rallycross starters: We discovered yesterday that as the laser head gets dusty it (duh) may lose the beam/signal. This sounds obvious but we all spent 10 minutes running around replacing other stuff until someone (who was it?) said "aha" and blew off the laser head!

3. Additions to the Rallycross Event Chair guide

IMO (again) I'd like to see the rallycross event chairs be responsible (can be delegated) for sweeping out and wiping down the interior of the bus. Or if we just get used to doing it while packing up that would be great.

4. To-buy list for the bus/trailer (this is for me)

Hand brush(es) for wiping down
Some kind of premoistened disposable wipes
New lighter plug outlets

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

My $.02:



Agree 100%.



Agreed, good policy. With the explicit clarification that if there's belief by the staff, EC's, or VP's that anybody is abusing the safety policy to hand-pick good runs, they will be "bogied". A specific case that comes to mind here is sliding into a sand pit while barely moving through a 180 does not usually constitute a safety condition given the low exit speeds.

As for mechanicals - I think if any course worker sees a mechanical issue that could cause a safety problem, a red flag should be thrown unless it is apparent the driver is aware (i.e. milking a flat tire to the finish). Any safety issue would have no worse than a bogie time. EC's and VP's would have final say (for possible rerun) if the issue was protested.

JMO

_________________
Dustin Fredrickson
-- I'm a nobody --

IMO if a driver stops because to course is too dusty to safely navigate the course, then yes s/he should stop for the safety of others. If the condition is caused by cars being launched too frequently, then a rerun should be allowed and the starter should increase the launch interval to allow dust to clear.
If someone is stopping for dust created by their own driving then that is part of the course. When I was at Oakland Acres and this the recent BMW Farm event it iwas quite evident that good drivers take a smooth line and while they create dust clouds they do not create a dust storm. There are wild drivers that can create more dust than several drivers at once. This kind of driving is not faster and doesn't need to be rewarded with a rerun even if they have to slow down for safety.

I agree

Agree... I brought the bus home yesterday to dust and sweep the bus. I didn't want the AutoX VP's mad at us for trashing the bus.
It wouldn't add 5 minutes to the end of the event to dust and sweep the bus before rolling out.

_________________
"Ruttin' is racing"

Chris Suich
Apex, NC
AutoX 2012 Nissan Leaf (Quietly changing the world)
AutoX 2003 Mini Cooper S (on sabbatical)
RallyX 1993 Nissan Sentra - "Le Tigre"
FunX 1970 Camaro LT1 ('95)

The AutoX VP's thank you!

_________________
Stephen Westerfield
2009 Infiniti M35 | 2007 Honda Fit Sport | 2005 Ford Mustang GT |2000 GMC Sierra |1992 Acura Integra LS | Super Westerfield Bros Acura Integra

It was my idea, but Kevin was the actual "blower."

_________________
Silver Honda
Green Ford
Blue/White Suzuki
Red Triumph
Grey BMW

"Never let life be shaped by fear of its end"

No, you're a towel!

Car stopping on course for unsafe conditions:

I was at the worker station where the car stopped for the dust cloud. The driver made the right decision by stopping because vision was 100% blocked.

In that situation, the cloud could have been caused by a car spinning from the finish side of the course and there could have been workers or a car behind the cloud. The rerun was the right decision.

Thanks,
Charlie

The to-buy list made me think of something. I remember somebody saying that we didn't have any wire, or string or whatever you call it that actually cuts the weeds when you use a weed-eater. We should make sure we have some of that next time.

I think the weed-whacker had wire but it snapped off inside the head while Kieran was using it in the morning - we couldn't figure out how to open it up to re-feed the wire.

Simon

_________________
< http://usukracing.com >
2011 & 2010 Atlantic Rally Cup 2WD Champion
2010 Rally America Eastern Regional 2WD Champion
2009 Atlantic Rally Cup M2 Champion
2008 New York Rally 2WD Championship 2nd Place
2007 Rally Spec Focus Champion

You should have grabbed me(I got it running, ten years of fixing power equipment). I will try and remember to set the feed back up at the next autocross.

_________________
RedLanternRacing, builders of the fastest cars in last place.
Success is not an option.
1981 Scirocco, "Vera"

I'm fine with cars stopping on course if they perceive an unsafe condition- we already do that in cases like course workers being in the way, or a car stopped on course (if red flag was not thrown/seen for some reason). And I guess I have to agree that thick dust clouds are unsafe. Maybe it's my rally background, but I'm having a bit of trouble with the idea of granting reruns based on dust. Let me think about that one a bit more.


Hmm. IMO if you see I'm having a mechanical problem of some type, I'm probably already aware of it and have made my own decision whether to stop, continue at reduced speed, or continue at full speed. In cases where I've had flat tires, for example, I've decided every time to continue as fast as I can. Heck, I can finish the run safely and probably lose only a few seconds, and change the tire out in a few minutes during the heat. If someone red flagged me "for my own safety" and gave me a DNF I would not be a happy camper. Now if you're going to let me change it and give me a rerun, then that seems OK at first, but it also forgives poor driving and, at some events I can recall, it would have dragged the run group out for another hour. I don't think I like the idea of red flagging cars with flat tires, no matter what the rerun policy is.

I don't know in how many cases external observers can really judge whether a mechanical problem is a real safety issue. Smoke pouring from a car? Can you tell an engine fire from a blown head gasket (or bad valve guides) from 50 yards away? If you can, then it's time to throw a red flag. If there's something happening that clearly poses an immediate danger to the driver, then definitely red flag- no rerun. Otherwise, let the driver make his/her own decision.


Agreed that rallyXers need to be good club citizens and leave the bus (and trailer) interiors at least as clean as we got them. However, the situation would have been greatly improved had the folks in the bus simply closed the windows and doors to the bus and run the A/C if they felt they needed the air. Filling the bus interior with dust makes more of a mess than even a thorough sweeping and wipedown will fix. For one, it fills the mechanicals of the printer with grit, which shortens its lifetime. It gets into the filing cabinet and makes a mess in there that won't get cleaned up. Same with the electronics bay above the windshield, the drivers seat, instrument cluster, etc. IMO if it is dusty at all the bus should be sealed up tight. The A/C is working now, isn't it?

That's my $0.03.

_________________
Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

Hey Carl - Good points, and I agree with your thoughts. I am only bringing these topics up because, from my observations, there wasn't a clear understanding in T&S of them, and I want us to all work out the bugs during the downtime before it happens again. Not a big deal overall at all though.

A few comments for clarification:



Agree completely.

While I was in the bus, T&S called for a red flag for the Dirtmaster with a blown tire. I can understand why this happened since T&S and the courseworkers haven't been given any instructions about mechanical problems, and we're all erring on the side of safety.

This is why I brought it up for discussion.

What you said above should be covered at the meeting. "Workers -- if a car has a SERIOUS safety problem then throw the red flag and call a DNF. If it's not serious let the car continue." Or something like that.

That's where I had the idea of equipping the corner stations with Meatball flags, but logistically it's tough because we'd have to buy more stuff and administer it, so it's not ideal.



Good point, and this should probably be mentioned in the meeting or directly to T&S - if dusty close her up and run the A/C. Please add it to your driver's meeting notes.



Yes, it works. Not great but it takes about 5 degrees off and makes it a lot less humid. The bus ran all day with th AC on at Laurinburg with no issues. Interestingly, the A/C works better when the bus is stationary than when moving! Probably the heat from the motor is heatsoaking the condensers. So everyone please use it and keep the inside dust free!!!

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

IMO, our usual starters (Kevin A. and myself) are pretty good and evaluating the dust conditions and adjusting the launch interval as required. I adjusted it for every car based on the wind, previous car, etc. The one incident where the car had to stop was because the previous car (making that last left to the finish) really had some wheel spin and the wind shifted. The driver (total noob BTW) that stopped did the right thing IMO and was given a re-run, rightly so. With that said, had he created his own cloud...tough noogies IMO. If we allow people to use the "It's too dusty I want a re-run" approach at will, the next event won't end until dark, when it's "too dark to see" as well.

Regarding red flags for a mechanical condition, it can be totally situation / driver dependent IMO. While Carl would rather run a flat the entire course rather than get a bogey time, others may not. Even in our "POS" I'd prefer to be red-flagged rather than risk any additional damage that could be avoided. Give me a re-run or not, this ain't the WRC, there's no money to be won, so it's no big deal to me. The laid back approach of RX is one the most appealing things to lots of us. Please let's keep it that way by not taking the "competition" and ourselves too seriously.

Regarding the bus/trailer cleanliness issue, FYI I was the one who shut the doors on the trailer and tried to make sure they stayed shut all day. I figured the bus was too hot to close the windows, so running the A/C in the future sounds like the best plan.

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

You're free to deal with your flat tire any way you choose, including stopping on course (as Charlie did late in the afternoon) to change it. You don't need a red flag. Unless you're saying you can't tell when you've got a flat tire, and would therefore not slow down when you otherwise would.

If you're hoping to get a few extra seconds warning to help avoid damage, I'd be very surprised if you got it considering how long it usually takes to get a car stopped after the first "red flag" call goes out. And if the rule is a red flag for flats, then everyone has to stop, not just people who want to.

_________________
Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

I can tell when I have a flat, some people can't. I'm saying that if I were red-flagged for a flat (or something else I wasn't aware of) it wouldn't be the end of the world and I wouldn't be demanding a re-run as you indicated that you would.

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

I didn't say I'd demand a rerun if stopped, I said I'd be upset. Upset enough that I might demand a rerun- what else could I do? I'd then demand the ejection of the person who called the red flag from the event.

Sure, it's not the end of the world, but I mean we did go there to compete, and I'd like to win. I also hope to win SU2 this year (for the first time ever), and a 15th place finish would be bad news. I joined this club because I like to compete- if I didn't I'd probably buy a Ferrari or something.

I think Mike's idea of a "mechanical" flag is a good solution for everyione, except for the infrastructure issues it creates (that he mentioned). But if it's going to be a choice "red flag or not", I vote no.

_________________
Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531