THSCC Forums

Ditch SO2 and NO2 class. All 2wd cars run together in SU2 or NU2.

Having the engine size differentiation in the 2wd classes (where more power is useless) and NOT in the 4wd classes (where it can be used) has never made sense to me.

Having run SO2 for a year, it's a depressing place, never enough competition, and zero (or less) advantage over SU2.

So I say scrap the 2WD over 2.4 classes for next year (... and maybe also think about splitting the 4WD classes by engine size?)

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Been there, suggested that. Although I wanted to separate the cars by drivetrain configuration instead.

Whatever - it's fine with me because I'll win anyway.

SO2 typically has 3 to 4 drivers. i don't see where putting them into SU2 would hurt anything. might want to ask Walter.

4WD, well you guys will have to hash that out.

Mike's idea sounds fine to me. We are very competative in the General Lei with all the 2WD cars except the Bergstrom/Adams SE-Rs. An extra 70HP does matter if you mate it with an LSD. Otherwise I agree, more HP power = more wheel spin.

We talked briefly about adding a PG-type LSD, but that would cost more than the car.

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Bring The Dog on over to SU2 old man. We'll give that old hound a whoopin' like he ain't never seen!

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

I agree with Mike. I have not been out much this year but from my experience in SO2 and NU2 cars the courses we run do not provide oportunities to take advantage of lots more power. I think it makes sense to combine them.

I you were going to separate 2wd cars I would vote for separating by drive configuration rather than displacement. rwd is not equal to fwd. But heck lifes not fair.

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Merkur xr4ti rally car

I think the basic proposal has merit mainly because, as Matt points out, the nature of our courses limits the usefulness of more power/displacement.

But can someone give me an example of a sensible division of the 4WD classes? We haven't really seen large variations in engine displacement among our 4WD competitors, that I recall. The SCCA uses (or at least use to use) a standard displacement multiplier of 1.8 for forced-induction engines, but we haven't seen WRXes showing ant speed advantages over 2.5RSs or even Outbacks, even if we take KA out of the results.

If we really wanted to shake things up, we could try to re-divide the classes by "tractive potential", where things like rally tires, 4WD, and/or limited-slip diffs make the difference.

Or, we could leave things as they are. Even though engine displacement might not turn out to be the most meaningful distinction, it's still a logical one, and I continue to see merit in that. And, although *O2 are currently poorly subscribed, it's not causing any problem unless you just have some kind of moral objection to seeing someone win a trophy in the Dog or All-Terrain Acclaim. Someone could still turn up in a Mustang or sporty pickup, or turbo FWD with LSD and do quite well. I don't want to do away with reasonable classes just because they're undersubscribed at the moment.

Good discussion so far though- let's keep it going.

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Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

4WD Classes (2 classes):

Kevin Allen
Everyone else with a 4wd

Only exception would be if Feinberg shows up in an AWD car. The it would the Allen/Feinberg class.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

How about:

2wd street tire
2wd rally tire

4wd street tire
4wd rally tire

Really at our level that's the only things that clearly demarcate the cars - other than drive layout, tires make by far the largest difference. All other things like modifications, displacement, etc just fall into the noise. Even 2wd LSD cars and 2wd open diff cars are surprisingly close.

--Kevin H.
(it's not even off season yet!)

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2003 WRX (again!)

I second the motion.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Uh...what? I drove the wheels off our car at the September event and Eric Adams still beat me like an old shoe in his 140HP LSD equipped SE-R...with cones!

Kevin used to claim that it was the driver (Robe Bergstrom) that was beating us, not his car. Then he (Rob) and Stephen switched cars for a run. Stephen was right on Rob's time with only one run. Rob didn't do so well in The General. Driver or car? Hmmmm.

Yeah, yeah I know...get a better/faster car. Our crew's driving skill is there with the best of them. With equal power and traction...

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

after seeing SO2 times versus any garden variety general lei driver, I'd say no way. The weight is a big disadvantage.

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traded the ultimate driving machine for a hatchback.....

I think a more valid comparison (and maybe what Kevin was intending) would be the Neon vs. the SE-R. Although Eric's been beating me like a rug for the most part this year, I think he's also a better driver. At the March event, though, Matthew Johnson beat Eric handily in my car- can you draw conclusions from that? I'm not sure, the numbers are all so variable.

The General is definitely at a disadvantage in terms of horsepower, and I don't know what all else. But it's obviously your decision to run a POS, so I don't think you have much basis to complain about also not finishing better, unless it's to lobby for a POS class. With your stellar drive at the last event, you have shown it can be done, so I think doubts about the driver part of the equation should be pretty much settled now. Again, the numbers are all so variable, but I wouldn't bet on too many SU2 wins for the General in its current form, at least not if Eric and I are running in good form.

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Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

I think Carl is saying you need to turbo the General.

The LSD in the SER isnt THAT good. Is a viscous unit that wears out like any other viscous diff. Eric is just an excellent driver in a car that handles pretty damn good and has good powah.

I still dont think the ULTIMATE SU2 car has shown up.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

hey, i resemble that remark PJ