THSCC Forums

School? (novice or advanced - or both?) Test day? Normal, non-points rallyx? August 5 or 6?

No poll, because I want to see who's picking what and why.

I'm thinking school, preferably covering the full range of students from novice to advanced. And I originally said Sunday, but lots of people like to have a day off afterward, so probably Saturday the 5th.

School + non-points event

School in the morning with heavy emphasis on student ride-alongs with instructors on timed course -- demonstration of techniques. Keep it simple. Lunch review of important points.

Non-points course in the afternoon, 3 runs cumulative, lets people exercise their new learnings. Continue to encourage ride-alongs, students with instructors and vice-versa.

Instructors get in for free and (gasp!) don't work, as they should be helping the student(s) all day. 1:2 ratio of instructors to students, with 1/2 students working while others are running, both in the AM and PM.

Just my opinion If you pick a free weekend on my calendar I would chair this format

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Couple comments after thinking this over:

In my highly controvercial opinion, schools which allow a large number of runs on a course, either paved or dirt, aren't very useful. Autox and Rally-x are about being fast and consistent out of the box. Now I know that a rank novice will need a lot of seat time to get the fundamentals down, but after your first 3 or 4 or 5 events, repetition can't really be part of the learning experience. Figuring out how to go fast NOW is more important.

So at a school like this, maybe a more personalized approach would be good, especially if you want it to range from novice to advanced. Pair up the instuctors based on car type, then have them work with the student to develop a plan. I just wanted to be sure to incude demonstration as a key element, since many things are easier shown than talked about. I also believe many competitors would not believe that "driving smart" is faster until shown. On the timer.

History also shows that allowing people multiple "practice" runs at a school doesn't really encourage the VITAL concept of car preservation and having clean runs. It's too easy to allow the "banzai" mentality at a school where "nothing matters". I'd like to see us avoid that, which is another reason I'd like to see a mini-nonpoints event as part of the school.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

alright, i did not read either of Mike's posts past the first 2 sentences so if i am repeating anything i apologize.

my times in rallyX are sixth, seventh in class consistantly. so until i improve or someone faster comes into the class my skill level (finishing position) will not change. i am not improving, but i feel i am holding my own. i do not fully understand the mechanics of a front wheel drive car. i forget to brake in a straight line in the heat of battle on dirt. long and short of it is; for me, a school with an instructor intensive scenario would be most helpful. similar to an HPDE. the more i rallyX the more i feel rallyX is not the same as an autoX. 30 minute sessions? maybe not. but competitive ride alongs ( albeit non-points ) could be helpful.

what i remember from autoX school was too many students with no real experience. given the turnout for rallyX, i think an intermediate approach to the school might be more appropriate.

maybe two runs in the am with instructor as passenger & one run with student as passenger, and then two instructor runs in the pm with student as passenger and one run as driver.

Either a school or being chased by someone that looks like Roscoe P. Coltrane and involves an abandoned bridge.
I would enjoy a school. I spent two years (Before I turned sixteen) abusing a 400 Ranchero on dirt roads in Apex. I surprise my wife with the occasional E-brake or Rockford(As we go into the back lot at the fairgrounds ). I really need some schooling to keep me from being a bigger tool than I come across as on this forum.

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RedLanternRacing, builders of the fastest cars in last place.
Success is not an option.
1981 Scirocco, "Vera"

dude, it just might turn out that you are a rallyX tool. (spelled: program in its infancy-needing all interested parties to contribute continued support so as we can all continue to have a really good time.) bring out the car Chuck. leave the rest to fate and the ruts. steve.

I am king of the tools. I have the blue and white polka dot jersey to prove it.
I want to come out, but I have to get off work to do it. I work EVERY Saturday, and we have a small crew, with one slacker that gets every other Saturday off(Long Story, but he needs a Ro-sham-bo in a big way) Anyway, I have tires ordered, a set of rims in the attic, and I plan to go to the Sept(?) event be it school or regular event.

_________________
RedLanternRacing, builders of the fastest cars in last place.
Success is not an option.
1981 Scirocco, "Vera"

Well September's event will be a normal event. The one in August will possibly be the school.

I'm up for either a school or non points event as I'll drive no matter what. Not sure if I'm instructor material or not (let the powers that be decide that) but am always willing to lend a helping hand.

So what do y'all think about my proposed format?

Morning school w/o set format on a regular course -- let the instructor and his 2 students work on the curriculum, think similar to a HPDE format -- plus 3-run non-points event in the PM on a new course, with instructors riding shotgun?

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Just some general questions since I am a n00b:

- What is an HPDE format? (I can guess, but I don't want to)

- Who is senior enough to be an instructor (Carl, Kevin, Whitney... ??)? I know I am uber-n00b, so I would definitely be a student.

The only thing I would like to add is that I want to run a rutted course. Running a *new* course without ruts is *completely* different than a course with ruts. I would like to *learn* how to run a rutted course properly without hurting the machinery and how to think intelligently about the evolving course.

Personally, a run on a new, degrading, and rutted course would be ideal with stops inbetween each run to discuss how the course is changing, and how you should change your 'attack' based on the course would be highly benifical for me.

Maybe I am making a mountain out of a mole hill, but those are things I would like to learn, personally. That, and maybe discussion about things people can do to their rally cars to ensure they are properly protected (if this includes a novice section).


- dow

I don't think including a set of competition runs would discourage people from driving stupid, Mike. It's not discouraging it now, is it? If people want to come to school and waste their money, that's their decision. If they come to learn, they won't be doing banzai runs.

I'd rather have a low-pressure, maybe not even timed, event where people can just focus on getting it right. At a rallyx, you can completely blow a different corner every run, which will make your times meaningless. "Oh, I guess you were wrong, Mr. Instructor - I got that one corner right and my time increased by 3 seconds!"
So maybe just leaving out the timer (at least for morning runs) will help.

As for who qualifies to be an instructor, that would be based on who they're instructing, I guess. If you're a total noob, then you're a student. If you're pretty decent, then you qualify to instruct the total noobs. If you're whooping butt on a regular basis, then you're a senior instructor. We could split into 3 groups... senior instructors get to run the course early in the morning and rut it up - I mean figure it out. Next the mid-level students run, the noobs work and the seniors teach. After that, the noobs run, the mid-levels teach and the seniors work. We could arrange a course design that would allow just a few workers, and if a senior instructor sees a noob butchering a corner every time, he or she could leave the course to go stop the carnage.

We could then have a different afternoon course with a timer. We'd split each level in half to determine our A/B run groups, and run it like a regular afternoon session, with 3 runs total. No times recorded, just displayed. Allow no cars to leave the start without at least one passenger. And discourage banzai runs - or maybe even have them do a banzai run first, then focus on getting it right the next 2 runs and watch the times drop.

Just some thoughts, if anyone sees something really stupid about this plan, feel free to keep it to yourself.

Hmm... as long as the Banzi runs are on an already rutted course.

Why do I bring that up? On a clean course, I am generally pretty fast. For instance, I can keep up/be faster than Keith on a rutted course. However, when the course gets worse, I get exponetially worse. Hence why I dont think times are valuable unless the course is pretty hosed to start with. However, times are generally meaningless as the course dynamically changes anyway, so you *will* be a better driver in the last runs as opposed to the first runs, but your times may be worse/same, but you still made major improvments to 'stay ahead of the course'.

I agree with trying to remove Banzi runs though. Longer courses, which people like, leave lots of areas where you can 'screw' something up different on each run, and your cumulative times dont mean as much. This is something I find much different than autoX as you may have had *the* line in the morning, but that doesn't mean crap now that it is rutted (unless you are taking the clean line all the time, I guess).

Anyway, just my input. I would rather drive a rallyX cleaner/smarter, and having someone help me *see* what I am scewing up would be a great help. My methodolgy needs to change.

- dow

We agree about the rank novices, but not about more experienced drivers. Of course autoX and rallyX are about being fast and consistent out of the box. But how are they going to to become fast and consistent without practice? In fact, someone with a few events under their belts is more likely to have bad habits to unlearn, which will take more time, not less.


I absolutely agree on this point. Consider a regular autocross school- typically in a "segment" the student will get 6-7 runs, and if the instructor takes a demonstration run or 2, they come out of the student's allotment. A better plan for this school, IMO, would be for the student to get 4-6 runs and the instructor 2-3, perhaps alternating runs. But that's more runs than usual, not fewer, as I read your suggestion.

When I've ridden with folks (in both rallyX and autoX) sometimes what they're doing is so different from me that I simply can't try to address them all at once- there simply isn't time, and I'm usually reluctant to take away one of their precious few runs for a demo ride with me. So I'll pick the thing that stands out the most and we'll use the whole rest of the session trying to improve that one thing. With more instructor drives it may be possible to effectively demonstrate more of the concepts than there is time to explain and practice individually.


If the goal is to teach/encourage car preservation and making clean runs, I would prefer to do that by making it part of the curriculum. I don't see how lopping off half the available instruction time really works toward that end.

Regarding who will be an instructor and who will be a student, I think that's going to be a tricky one. I think Kevin's suggestion of having 3 levels, with the top level teaching the mids, then having the mids teach the noobs, is going to be the only practical way to cover the number and spread of people we're likely to get. And Brian, there's no way you are a noob, Mr. National Challenge winner...

_________________
Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

I think what Brian was trying to say is that he feels like a noob when it comes to attacking an ever changing course. I am finally getting the hang of it and sometimes it shows that I am and other times it shows I am not when I make very stupid noobish mistakes. Maybe I will be a bit more confident in my driving once I get a set of shocks on my car that are not constantly on the bump stops.

_________________
2010 Honda Fit Sport
Couple of bicycles

I think that the course at Oakland Acres typifies the type of course I WILL be good at -- a fairly static course that requires lots of speed [which doesn't bother me]. The course does change, but not in the major ways that our courses change and rut from one run to the next. This is something I have a REALLY hard time keeping up with, and I totally suck at finding the best line for.

You put me on a hard clay surface, and I am going to be 'fast' due to the fact I can find a line, and improve on it -- a la autoX. Our local 'tracks' change from run to run, and knowing how to run the ruts pays off big, and I suck at that. THAT is something I need A LOT of help with. I am still WAYYYY n00b at that.

To more directly answer the point of the post, I would like to be able to find he line easier. For Day 2 in Orange, Va; I seriously just found a 'safe' line and I ran 97s all morning. This was what I will call 'the autoX line'. It was the shortest path and the smoothest path. This was a 'decent' line, but not a fast line like the KA 94s line. When I tried to deviate or add 'more' to that line, I ran 98s (got slower). For me, helpful things would be:

- Finding the 'good' line on a rutted course
- Finding the 'shortest line'/clean line/smart line on the course at the time
- How to run the 'fast' line, and what techniques CAN make a turn faster, as opposed to just shortest path all the time.
- Crazy sideways car sliding vbreaking techniques

I have a 'decent' line, but I could find a better 'Mike Whitney' line, and work on my 'Kevin Allen' line.

- dow