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Yeah, so as Mike indicated, we had a car roll on Saturday. It was a VW Fox, and he spun after the finish lights. As he spun, he must've dug a wheel in, and with the suspension being unloaded (decelerating) the extra momentum had a good place to go- up .

Personally, I didn't think the finish was unsafe, there being a pretty generous straightaway before the lights. But it was fast, and if you slid wide on the final left-hander you could find yourself turning right to make it through the finish, and (although I didn't see his approach) I'm guessing that's what happened to the Fox, and he spun trying to stay inside the exit lane.

I have my own opinions of how this could have been avoided (both by the driver, and through course design) which I will share a little later, but I'd like to hear your views. Did you consider the finish safe? What would you have done differently, as the driver, or as the course designer? I think the morning finish was much worse (quite bad, IMO), but let's start out talking about the incident in the afternoon, and what things we (both drivers and VPs) can and should be learning from this.

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Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

Even though I didn't drive it, I think the morning finish was worse than the afternoons. And that was only because of the close proximity of the course to the pits. Had there been a little bit larger gap there then that wouldn't have been so bad. As for the afternoon finish, that didn't look bad at all. Again though keep in mind that I didn't drive so I don't have a first person point of view. From what I could tell, if anything would have happened, it would have been before the finish, not after where the VW owner stopped. Since, like you said, there was a relatively long straight before the finish, that's where my musings come from.

Is there anyone who actually watched him turn it over that could shed some light on what it looked like to have happened? That might help some in figuring out how to avoid this again.

Just my $.02

IMHO, I think this could have happened on MULTIPLE sections of the course. For instance, the fast right hand sweeper (afternoon course) after the 'hairpin' making the right towards the backside. THAT got really deep, and I think - as Kevin stated - LOTS of people were driving WELL outside of the 'saftey zone'. I believe the same VW got on two wheels in the morning (same location), and I was expecting something to happen THERE as opposed to the actual site of the incident.

As far as a solution goes, I don't think there is a catch all. This was NOT necessarily course design's fault as the course WILL change. The tighter the slaloms get, the more chances there are for DEEP ruts. The less slaloms/tight areas, the faster the course gets and DRIVERS can enduce flipping at that point.

I honestly feel this is going to be an issue with any rallyX setup (esp with our 'sandy' surface) so driver INTELLIGENCE is the only way I see to really combat this (at this point). A 'rally license' would not be a bad idea, but it adds overhead. Maybe you need the 'rally license' before you can run in ANY 'N' class? The 'N-tired' cars go faster and have more lateral grip.... but that isnt the 'problem' as 'other' cars have flipped WITHOUT rally tires.

I think having more intelligent drivers out there, or starting with a 'rutted' course, and teaching people how to PROPERLY navigate the course would be a worthwhile 'idea' to implement at some point. I say this as I watch Kevin, Carl, 'The Alien' nagivate the course SMOOTHLY near the end of the morning and turn the FASTEST times.

Driver Education? Just my limited input...

- dow

Carl wrote:

What straightaway before the finish? At full-tilt-boogie, I barely got the car straight before the exit. Admittedly, there was plenty of straight run-off after the finish to come to a controlled stop. This is the first course where I have gotten periously close to a finish cone, and I thought I was going to "Simon-ize" the righthand finish cone. I touched it, but left it standing.

One suggestion for this would be a mention in the drivers meeting about how we exit the course. I often see folks locking down the brakes and sliding which can induce spins. That was my conjecture as to what happened to the VW, but I was on course and could not see what actually happened.

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1998 BMW Z3
1987 BMW 325is
2000 BMW
1996 F250 Turbo Diesel

I didn't think the afternoon finish was a problem at all. It had *plenty* of shutdown room and while it was a hair fast, there wasn't any danger to the cars sitting in grid/pits like the morning finish. I wouldn't change a thing about the afternoon finish even with the benefit of hindsight.

I really didn't think the morning finish was a problem either but some people were trying real hard to crash into the pits. I think the big problem was people quit driving as soon as they crossed the finish line and let the car do whatever it wanted to at that point. If they happened to be pointed towards the pits, they just let the car slide that direction. I really didn't understand that very well.

I'm honestly still at a loss as to how the guy managed to roll the car through the afternoon finish. Given what I saw in the morning, I would have to guess he quit driving the car as soon as he crossed the finish line and could have prevented the roll rather easily. I didn't see the accident so that is speculation on my part but it sure didn't seem like other people had a big problem with that finish.

I think Charlie's observation and suggestion is spot on. While we certainly need to slow down after crossing the finish line, there is no need to lock the brakes or go sliding into the runoff area out of control.

Jim

p.s. Sorry about skipping out on you guys early. I had a message on my cell phone about my brother going into the hospital after my first afternoon run and couldn't get in touch with anybody. After trying for a bit, I decided to head back to find out what was going on. Thankfully it was something relatively minor related to a previous health problem he's been having and is doing fine now.

Yeah what straight? I was never anywhere driving straight on either course, either before or after the finish.

Kevin Allen was about 50' away from the incident and can perhaps explain what he saw happen. From what I understand the driver was sliding at the finish and instead of steering into the slide he locked the wheels.

Obviously both rolls at our events were in street tire cars so requiring some sort of license for N* would make absoluely zero difference.

I do think we need an education effort, but it needs to be done in a way that doesn't lengthen our already lengthy drivers meetings.

--Kevin H.

(edit: Removed editorial comment that added no value...)

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2003 WRX (again!)

Well, I did actually observe the roll, and a few moments before it, from a pretty good vantage near the bus, and my original post documents what I saw.

Jim, I absolutely agree that he "stopped driving the car" at that point, and that that was where his problems really started. I've seen others do the same thing, and I've done the same thing myself. But when I felt 2 wheels come off the ground in the Neon last year after a partial spin past the finish, I decided I'd be exiting the course straight from then on.

Perhaps in any car, but certainly in a FWD car, applying power adds stability- a force vector in the direction you want the car to go. One more reason why the gas is your friend!

Charlie/Kevin, I guess I wasn't taking the same line as you- I was tracking out just past the bush, so it was a straight shot to the finish for me.

Brian, I didn't see what that right-hander you mention looked like during the last run group, but I can believe that it got pretty rough. The equivalent corner from the morning course certainly had a terrible hole develop. I'm not sure if the problem is that drivers don't see these hazards in time and end up having to deal with them at speed, or if their attitude (particularly "beater" drivers) is that they don't care, and simply throw caution to the wind. For myself, I prefer to slow down, then set up a line that lets me go inside of the worst damage, particularly at corner exit.

Now that speeds, and people's aggression levels, are really going up, having another school really would be a good idea.

PS. Jim, I'm glad to hear your brother's OK! I'd heard that's why you left, and I was concerned.

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Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

That's what seemed to happen from where I was standing. He crossed the finish relatively straight, and could've just countersteered a few degrees to the left and slowed down just fine, but he just let it spin to the right. Once it got completely sideways, the right wheels lifted up and it just rolled right over. Now I've spun out like that plenty of times in the Imprezas when I was playing around, and I've never had any problem. But I always have a good suspension on the car - that & the car's low center of gravity make all the difference. Would I allow the Forester to spin like that? HELL NO.



They don't care. Trust me on this one. (or maybe they're just not thinking - you really have to think ahead, not just look ahead, to anticipate what's coming up at the next corner)

If you were driving the last turn in the afternoon the way it was supposed to be driven (very late apex on the tree and under control) you would've had no problem avoiding the cones. I was setting the fastest times on both courses, and I never had any trouble keeping it under control at either finish. I did get in the loose stuff on the 3rd morning run, but guess what I did... I slowed down and got it under control before I crossed the finish. Yes, I was a second slower on that run, but I bet only a few tenths came from slowing down before the finish.

I guess I've gotten so used to knowing how to drive on these courses that I'm not as good at knowing what kind of trouble the uninitiated crazies can get into. I've been thinking for a while about suggesting we have a school sometime soon, and after this weekend, I'm thinking we should do it asap. Maybe we should also implement a novice mentor program, like we have with autox, too. I took the guy with the 06 WRX for a ride in the morning to try and get his speed up a little by demonstrating what you could really do with the car, but I also told him to work up to it gradually, because there was the chance he could debead a tire or break something if he wasn't careful. And I also showed and told him where to drive and where NOT to drive to be quick. Getting out there & just going nuts is usually going to blow almost every corner.

I don't know what the best solution to this problem is; I think as long as there's a little piece of decorated wood to win, some people are going to risk their lives for it. Maybe we just have to start having talks with those who get the cars up on two wheels - or are just generally being unsafe - and let them sit out the rest of the event if they repeat? I know everybody's trying to have fun, but I don't want anybody getting killed out there.

I think I can speak for everyone in our "beater" and say that is NOT the case with us. I am not "worried" about the car, but I do "care" if I do something to disable it. Though we won't go broke if our car is damaged, we would all prefer not to do so and drive accordingly. After all if we have no car, we have no fun.

Will I drive it as hard as I can? You damn right I will. Will I drive it beyond the limit to the point it endangers my personal safety? Not at all likely.

Don't lump all of us in the same basket just because we drive less than expensive cars.

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

While I can't speak for Carl, I don't think he is lumping all the "beater" car drivers in the same basket. There has been a definite upward trend lately with people bringing out "beater" cars and driving them like nothing matters. From what I saw last weekend, if we don't take a pro-active approach to safety/driver education, there will be an incident where the car isn't the only thing that gets bruised. The car that caught 4' of air in the morning immediately comes to mind.

Vincent, you need to be less sensitive.

Jim
- driver of a car that fits squarely in the middle of the "beater" category

Hey Guys this is what i saw on the afternoon course.
I was working station 1 and it seemed that many drivers after the finish line would try or for some reason turn their car to the right and then slam on the brakes, which would cause them to slide! I personally kept them straight then stopped. I guess his Momentum was alot greater which caused the rollover.

I didn't.


Good point, and IMO this brings us back to the driver education issue. It's easy and fun (and generally safe) to push past the limit of your car's capabilities in rallycross, and I think that's part of the attraction. But especially when the course starts to degrade, there are other vehicle dynamics issues that come into play, and people need to recognize what these are and what can happen (I think they're starting to get a picture of that now... ).

The thing is, most of the "crazy" stuff we see is not only dangerous, it's slow. Just as in autocross, there's a big difference between driving hard and driving fast, and the key is to learning where to go slow to go faster. And safer.

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Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

i hesitate to post in this topic, but here goes anyway.

i am getting faster every rally X. my understanding of the consequences of being faster has not changed. my ability to roll a car or shall i say my ability to NOT roll a car has not markedly changed in my opinion. i generally feel like the car is at the edge of control at numerous times in every rallyX i have participated in so far. the most disconcerting moments in this sundays event were quite honestly for me in the afternoon sessions as i crossed the finish line. the car was very squirrelly and i was forced to aggressively countersteer to maintain control.

in comparison the finish in the morning to me was simply an overdriving situation where too wide meant back out of the throttle.

my point is i don't always know why or how the car reacts to some of the situations rallyX brings about. i am aggressively pushing my limits and quite possibly the cars also. i am reacting to the situations as they arise.

on my first run ever in the General at the BMW Farm i caught a rut sideways and really thought i was going over. these days i try not to bang the side of a rut and when i do i am not as worried about it as i once was. however, i have some doubts as to my ability to correct everything i may put myself into.

which brings me to this point. in autocross, pushing a car will result in a spin or a trip into the weeds. maybe hit a tree like at sanford in years past. probably not too serious an incident. on the track at speed an off will either go your way or really hurt the car and quite possibly you also. the potential for fatality exists. thus the restrictions and regulation of safety equipment and experience factors.

i hate to say this but rallyX is potentially more likely to present an injury situation than track events. i really enjoy rallycross but just maybe we need to institute an hpde format to gain entry to rallycross open racing. and unfortunately we may need to mandate some form of rollover protection. solo1 bar just in case.

i play devils advocate on this subject only because i believe i have come to a realization. i have always wondered why the scoobie newbs are so slow. their cars are powerful and more or less designed to play in the dirt. i am out there in a 1700 lb. car giving it hell. and then i remembered that my garage queen is a bonafide track car and it would not be difficult for me to push it above my ability and end up crashing.

thing is i could just as easily crash the General, the lower hp and torque are deceptive. i have reached or am close to a comfort level and i am pushing the envelope. i do this with no rollover protection in the car. i trust i will be able to correct to save my own ass. i signed the waiver, let's hit the dirt. i am not intentionally reckless.

i have spent a dollar or two on my bmw. i feel relatively safe at speed on track. i respect the car and i respect the speeds i am running. i am pushing the envelope. i have a solo1 bar. i correct to save my own ass and push harder to see what more i am capable of. i signed the waiver, lets hit the pavement.

i will close with this thought. i think we need to mandate safety restrictions in rallycross. will i push to see these implemented? no. i have no clear cut solutions. i really enjoy rallycross, but i see potential for someone getting hurt.

I do see your point of view for the safety equipment in rallycross. The problem being that SCCA designed rallycross to be the poor mans rallying that you can enjoy with your daily driver if you want. If we make it mandatory for you to have a roll bar in the car most of the S04 competitors will be lost. You point out Solo 1. I know it is mandatory to have a roll bar in the car for Time Trials but I don't think it is for track days as long as you have a true hard top car.

What it boils down to is knowing the limit and not being stupid and trying to be Sebastian Loeb and go as fast as you can in all situations. Rallycross is about being smart and smooth as much as it is about being smart. We just need to emphasize the importance of smart driving with the newcomers.

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2010 Honda Fit Sport
Couple of bicycles

One comment about roll protection: A roll on track is a significantly higher energy event than at a rallycross as the speeds are more than double. The 2 rollovers I have witnessed at rallycross have resulted in very little damage to the passenger compartment. Granted they were at low speeds -- and I think the key is to keep the speeds down to reduce the risk of intrusion. But I think mandating roll protection is not necessary in terms of risks / rewards.

Frankly my biggest fear with a rolling car at a rallycross would be arm injuries. Fortunately arm injuries could be considered "minor" in the big picture.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1