THSCC Forums

Thanks, Jim, for backing me up (or at least I took it that way). I will agree that it takes a better driver to do well in rallyX with a RWD car than with a FWD car, but I truly believe their potentials are the same. The same has been demonstrated over the years in rally- by far the majority of 2WD cars are FWD, but now and then some hotshot brings out a RWD car and shows everyone up. If it wasn't harder to do, I think we'd see more people doing it.

The problem is that right now, we've got huge disparities in driver experience and car "effectiveness" (to lump raw capability and prep level into in one bucket). Our data is all over the map, and everyone can find something in it to support their viewpoint.

Not to pick on Bret, but I don't think asking a guy who probably hasn't autocrossed in at least 10 years, and maybe not the best-prepared car (I don't know, I haven't asked him), what he thinks of his competitiveness is really going to give you useful data for realigning the classes.

I will tell you that I think having good tires makes a huge difference. I started out on good tires when we started doing rallyXes, then (as tires are wont to do) they wore out, and I noticed I wasn't doing as well anymore. So I got some new tires and started doing well again. This is something anyone can do, the rules allow it. I'll even tell you what I use: Fuzion HRi in 195/60-14. $42 apiece from Tire Rack. I like them better than the BFG Traction T/As I had before that (wore out too quick I thought). Here's a link.

In terms of rallyX speed, these are what I think the major factors are:

1. Driver skill/experience. (50%)
2. Tires. (25%)
3. Power. (12%)
4. Suspension. (12%)
5. Everything else. (1%)

I must be one of the only people who believes this, though, as it seems like people are always talking about what bald, crappy tires they're using. Either that or they don't mind finishing poorly, but then I would not expect to hear them agitating for rules changes to make them "more competitive".

I will agree that, based on our results, the FWD cars are generally going significantly faster than the RWD cars, and if we split the classes that way that we would still have good contests. But my feeling is that, if we're going to do it one way or the other, let's base it on the factor that is not a driver skill issue.

Up to $0.04 today,

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Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

I think both Carl and Jim both hit on a point that I neglected to see until pointed out -- class by cars potential. Also, 'fairness' should not be built into all the 'classes', or we would have a bazillion classes.

With that said, I just think we need to have some classes that fit our local club well as... well, it is OUR rules, so we can do with them as we like.

Kevin has a great point too (displacement vs drivetrain layout). With Carl's insight that while a a RWD may be harder to drive than a FWD, the *potential* off both cars are basically the same. Also, I think we have established that power matters, but only to a point (RS == STi, but Legacy != RS/STi). So, where does that leave us?

From the condensation, there is ONE majoy delimiter left -- rally tires. I don't think anyone will argue that. So, our core classes could be condensed into:

AWD Rally Tire
AWD Street Tire
2WD Rally Tire
2WD Street Tire

I think that we could all agree on those classes. Should we further segment for power? Eh. POS class? That is too 'lawless' as cheap AWD cars would dominate.

I am up for suggestions, but everything else seems 'grey'.

RallyXVPs -- do you job.

- dow

I'm not saying that. I was pointing out that FWD > RWD is not always the case as was offered up as a matter of fact. I do believe that if you took Rob's (or Carl's for that matter) car and reduced it to the MR2's power level with similar tires, the MR2 would more than hold its own. If you don't feel 30+whp & wtq doens't make much difference around a course given similar abilities to use the power, I don't know what to say. Since I don't feeling like trying to add power to the poor thing, I had planned on reducing weight which has nearly the same effect.

I have a feeling there are a few other RWD cars out there that could give the FWD'ers a hard time and not all of them are mid-engined. That is all speculation obviously so there is no point in debating their merits.



I agree with that 100%. That is why I said you were doing extremely well in a car that isn't particulary suited to rally-x. For whatever reason, I've never found "BMW mojo" translates well to slippery surfaces and I've owned an e30 325i and an e36 M3.

I honestly have no feel for how much an LSD contributes to a 2WD rally-x car's overall performance. I've never driven Rob's car and the only reference I have is Whitney's BMW-- assuming the earlier reference that it has an LSD is correct. Heck, Whitney's car may be easier to drive without an LSD if it would help keep the back end in check. In the case of the MR2, I don't think it would make much of a difference since it easily spins *both* tires coming off most corners.

As Carl stated, no offense to any of the other drivers running 2WD RWD cars, but I don't have any feel for how they are doing. Considering I don't recognize their names (with the exception of Bret) I'm assuming they have only run 1 or 2 events which doesn't put them in the best position to evaluate their respective platforms. I could be totally off base on that one and hopefully we'll hear from a few of them.

As with any racing endeavor, it's always going to come down to car choice. There are going to be certain cars that are better suited for a given class but I think at all of our current levels, those are (mostly) masked by our lack of prep and driving consistency. At this point, I really like the freedom to make some changes if I feel like my car isn't working for me where ever it is classed. And I really don't want to spend any *real* money on a car that cost me $400 in the first place. (No heckling from the peanut gallery regarding the money dumped into the $300 crx )

I don't really see much reason to splinter the classes so 1 or 2 drivers can run at the top when we really have so few data points to pull from. It also seems silly to follow the SCCA's rule-of-the-month club when we have the opportunity to have a little rules stability. Lets face it, the number of people who are going to travel to other clubs to rally-x is very low (unless I'm missing something) and they will choose to use whatever rules that fits their goals. They are also the most likely to run at the top of the heap regardless of our current rule set.

The rest of us poor slobs (well, this poor slob anyway) just want something consistent from year-to-year. It's a bonus if your car of choice happens to be at the top of the heap or at least has a shot at being there through modification or <gasp> better driving. Having to re-think car and modification choices from year to year seems very unappealing to me at the current fledgling status of the program.

That's what I think anyway...

Jim

I will add that I do see some merit in a POS class, since they seem to be making up a larger portion of our entry fields these days, and I understand and sympathize with folks who want to keep their expenses to a minimum. But I could also see how you could find or build an awfully stout POS pretty easily, and I don't know how you'd manage an "arms race", if it happened, while still keeping it fun and laid-back for everyone. A claimer clause, maybe?

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Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

Jim Fineberg for PRESIDENT!!!!!

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Just 'cause I can't seem to shut up today, I think the reason you see the RS ~= STi/WRX is mostly a matter of weight. The STi obviously has the power but it is a porker compared to the RS. And while the WRX isn't as light as the RS, it is lighter than the STi but has to contend with a lot more turbo lag. But you already knew all that. The Legacy? Well, we need another class for that one...

If you stuffed the STi drive train into the RS like a couple of people I've seen on the 'net, I'd just stay home.

Of course, a beat-up laggy porker Mopar/DSM supa' dupa' '92 AWD Plymouth Laser >>>>> all Subarus but who's counting?

Jim
- secretly counting when nobody's watching...

Lest I be considered remiss in my duties, Ryna, that's Feinberg.

_________________
The person with too many names...
Mary E./ME/Emmie Fisher/Daniel/Daniel-Fisher
(& some others not suitable for posting!).
Help support our habits; BUY http://virginiabreeze.us !

Since my ears were burning from this thread- let me just add a few data points to the discussion.

1- I have run a grand total of *1* autocross in my entire life- and that was in a 95% completed BMW E30 race car that I had just helped a friend build- so I was very careful not to break anything. (not sure what this has to do with the discussion, but my autocross experience was mentioned)

2- My current rallycross car is an '82 BMW 320i that I drug out of Bowie Gray's driveway after it was flooded by a hurricane, then prepped and ran it at Wake County Speedway for about 3 seasons (thus the fancy-schmanzy decals and the black donuts on the side). It is completely gutted, with a full cage- probably weighs in at ~2200 lbs though, with a mostly stock 2.0l carbureted engine, probably pushing ~90-100hp at the flywheel, if I'm lucky. The suspension is still set up to turn left on asphalt- sort of, it's got really stiff springs/shocks on the right side, and totally screwed up camber settings on the rear wheels- no where close to equal side-to-side. It does have a stock BMW LSDiff. The tires are completely dry-rotted (no really, take a look at them next time) POS tires from various parts cars. The car has been sitting for about 2 years, until this spring when I put the street tires on it, charged up the battery and drove it to the pasture where we held the first rallycross on our farm. Needless to say, it is NOT prepared very well for rallycross.

3- I was very surprised to see that I was the fastest RWD car at the last rallycross. The car is a handful to drive- tons of fun, but a handful. I never drive the car out here at the farm except on rallycross days- so I do not have alot of seat time in the car- it's a new experience every run!!! I would be very interested to see how driving a FWD car compared to the 320i. Based on what I have seen in the results- I tend to believe that FWD cars are better suited to rallycross at both Kevin's place and here at the BMW farm. If there's going to be a division in class based on either FWD/RWD or engine displacement- I think the FWD/RWD makes more sense.

4- Frankly, I don't care too much about trophies, plaques, etc- I enjoy rallycross just for the fun.

5- That Saab that ran at the last Rallycross had "turbo" on the back- based on the current classing- it needs to be put in SO2 !!!! (It did hurt my feelings to be beat by another girl) PPPPPP


Bret

They say you cant teach a dog new tricks, I am living proof of that! Im gonna put a word filter in to correct my mis-spelling of Jim's name. Either that or we could just get Jim to change his name, Smith sounds awful nice

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Man, it's sooooooo easy-- here, let me !

1st, I before E except after F ----------> Fein
2nd, Iceman, Iceberg -------------------> Feinberg

See, no problem!

Next, tips on how to spell Krzyzewski:

1st, K as in Klown, er, um, never mind, Duke sucks anyway!!!

Jim
- here to help as always and, oh yea, Go Heels!!!

Maybe he was just trying to tell you something by calling you "Fine"-berg.

Back on topic -- I think we should do some 'testing' on Saturday

- dow

You know if we all drive Kevin's STI, we only need one class. Or maybe two -- one for those of us with balls, and one for those of you without.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

So, the Wheelspin class (Street Tires) and the HolyCrapThisisFastAWDPwnsMe Class (Rally Tire).

I will take the Rally Tire class.

IBKevintellsmetoRallyXmyownSTi

- dow

Great...create a bunch of deep ruts. Oh wait, that's right, the SO4 guys have the tractor come out and smooth over them before they run.

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Ummm... excuse me? When the tractor isn't busted, I smooth the ruts out before every run group. Although I CAN just smooth it out for AWD if you'd like.

Don't make me come over there & yell at you.