THSCC Forums

Should we have an "X" class for those who test the courses during setup? I haven't personally felt the need before, because the changing conditions during the rallycross mean that I usually take a different line through every corner on every run. And out at my house, I usually tweak the course slightly (or majorly ) based on the testing, then stop running it after the final tweak is done. Then, it's a week before we actually run for times.

But Carl's comment in the rallycross report & comments from other people (maybe you're kidding, maybe you really feel that way & are pretending you're kidding) have made me wonder what people really think.

Plus... we set up the course at the BMW Farm on Saturday, and I was the one who did all the at-speed runs for testing. At this site, with its special terrain features & somewhat-hard-to-follow course design, I really think I'll have an advantage on at least the first run, having run it before.

So what do YOU think?

Oh, and I'm not asking whether you think it's ok to test the course - as long as I'm involved, there WILL be course testing. Without it, there would be some very unhappy customers.

When I was helping with course setup for auto-x (years ago), the course was usually tested. If there was someone NOT doing the actual autocross, then that person was the prefered tester, but that was rarely the case. Testing was then done in a car the person driving wouldn't be competing in, and it wasn't done (usually) at full speed, just fast enough to see if the course flowed, was safe, etc. Not a perfect solution, but it was something.

My suggestion to the people that are having issues with testing (real, or kidding) is to show up to help with set-up, and maybe they'll get the chance to be the one to test the course.

Good luck.

_________________
Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

I personally don't care at all if people get runs on the course before the event for the same reason -- things change so much from run to run that all an early run accomplishes is to give a general flow, something that a coursewalk takes care of for the rest of us.

--Kevin H.

_________________
2003 WRX (again!)

Kevin you're are already a self-admitted and well documented cheater so why stop now?

Since the course conditions change so rapidly I honestly don't see it as a big advantage, but I guess there is a little. I still don't have any problem with it though.

Like you said, I rather be a "happy customer" with a pre-tested nice flowing course than the alternative.

BTW, feel free to "test" all you want at Rockingham. None of the General Lei crowd will be attending that sandbox venue.

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Granted I'm not talking about rallycross, but when it comes to 'testing' a course, it's a big advantage the way I see it. You can guage a lot from a single run, even if the course were to change. Things like:

- shift points
- level of grip (or lack there of)
- gear selection for particular courses (and level of throttle for that gear)

I know that a lot of people get antsy about testing a course. From a safety and flow perspective, it's important, but it should be done like Diane said. Limited speed, with preferably someone who isn't running. The best thing to do is have someone not running drive the car, while having an experienced driver ride along to get the perspective. That's obviously a perfect world... - AB

_________________
'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Vincent's right. It took me the whole weekend steam cleaning the Civic to prep it to sell after one rallycross. I will never bring a car back there again that I care about. - AB

_________________
'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

One perk of being an event chair is a sneak peak at the course. If people don't like it, then they need to take some of the load off you and chair an event.

Scott

These changed a LOT from setup day to race day last time. Went from dry to "slightly" muddy , and I actually ended up giving up on shifting out of 1st gear on the morning course. But it took me 2 runs to figure that out - and I had setup & run the course the previous weekend.

You really can't compare an autox course to a rallyx course, unless the rallyx is being held on pavement.

That is probably a true statement. A little history though, a few years back on Sunday mornings, the THSCC autox courses looked like a Saturday event had been run. So that is one reason you might hear grumblings. You know the other reasons

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I was poking fun at you in the RallyX report, Kevin, since you live at the site and it's easy (and fun) to imagine you out there every night practicing the week before the event. Of course anyone walking the course on event day morning can see that only a few passes have been laid down, so I was not being serious.

That being said, I do think that practice runs should be limited to just what it takes to see if the course flows OK, meaning a minimum number of runs at 70-75% speed. That is the rule I believe we follow for autoX, and I think it applies just as well to rallyX.

This past Saturday I don't think you (Kevin) took any more runs than was absolutely necessary to define the course. And although I think you were driving something over 75%, I considered it valuable "pre-testing" of this new site. I was just as interested as you, I'm sure, to see what your experience was like.

Especially as we get more sites to have our events at , Kevin's critics are going to have to find new excuses for why he's so much faster than them.

_________________
Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

I can't drive at 75%. It's just not possible. Ask Vincent Keene if you need details...

Hmm- the fact that you still have a license, and that you don't have a huge berm carved into your driveway, makes me think you drive well below 100% a lot more often than you think...

_________________
Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

I would go along with the drive a different car or someone who is not driving in the rallycross driving the course.
Although I don't really think it makes too much difference; it would keep anyone questioing the practice, either publicly or privately, silenced.
I think it matters even less at Four Oaks where Kevin probably knows every bump and dimple in the whole field.

My 2 cents.

_________________
Common sense is NOT so common. ...Voltaire.

Well, the tricky part about that is your tires are all spinning anyway. The "theoretically perfect" area to shift is quite grey, since you can't actually match it to the speed you're travelling.

Yup. The last corner before the finish on this course is surprisingly slippery. Although I wonder if it's as critical as autocross. I imagine autocross as "Is this corner a 8.9 or a 9.1 in grip?" versus "Is this corner a 2 or a 1 in grip?"

Yup.

I'm a big fan of what the other folks have said: "Sneaky pre-testing is pretty much available (on a somewhat limited basis) to everyone that shows up to help set up the course." Since that option is open to all, I don't see a a problem. Some might come back with, "But it's inconvienent for me to be there at that time." Well, winning isn't supposed to be convienent. If you think one pre run will make the difference, make the time to go take it.

Cheers
Anders

_________________
Lina Racing: As Seen On Radio

My opinion would be that, since this type of event is still in its infancy for THSCC, it's very important for us to lay some really good groundwork for a good future series. Eventually, I expect you folks who set up courses pretty often on our regular sites will be able to lay out plenty of very good & plenty safe variations without having to pre-run the course at all. I doubt if we're quite at that point yet. So, I think having someone pre-run the course at enough speed to not only recognize good course flow, but also possible safety hazards, is still necessary & prudent, advantage or not.

I personally don't think 1 or 2 pre-runs on dirt are as dramatically helpful to me anyway as pre-runs on pavement; my times on dirt mostly vary in mins, not secs, even after I've had several runs. If you're talking about 6 or 8 pre-runs, yeah, that might be some help to me.

Do I think you may gain an advantage on a rallyX course by pre-running the course; I think you gain the advantage, just as we all do, simply because you're getting to practice your driving. If I were in your position & had access to a big cleared field right next to my house, I'd probably be out there most weekends & a lot of evenings practicing my driving! Nothing unfair about being the lucky one to have the field.

_________________
The person with too many names...
Mary E./ME/Emmie Fisher/Daniel/Daniel-Fisher
(& some others not suitable for posting!).
Help support our habits; BUY http://virginiabreeze.us !