THSCC Forums

With the appearance of another gutted and stripped "rallycross beater", I am becoming concerned about a trend developing.

I have mixed feelings about this issue. On the one hand:

• I think allowing these types of mods is sort of fun, and I think people should have fun rallycrossing.
• I don't think there's any real performance advantage, and besides the Dirtmaster and Matthew Johnson's GTI rally car would currently run in the same class, so why not allow some cheap lightening?

On the other hand:

• I think there is an appearance of an unfair advantage, and that bothers some folks (as has been noted on this forum).
• I think these cars reinforce an image (which I would like to combat) that rallycross is some kind of offroad, Baja 1000, torture test, which "normal" cars are not suitable for.

Please note that I have no issue with people buying cars to be used just for rallycross, and no issue with them being beaters, and no issues with them being called "beaters". Just with the issue of gutting interiors and removing body panels. I freely admit that it's purely an "image/perception" thing with me.

Now I sure do wish that our sites did not perpetuate the offroad, Baja 1000 torture test image. But we're still working on that one.

What do y'all think?

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Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

A few possibly uncoherent thoughts -

One refreshing thing about rallycross is that, IMO, the car is "less" of a factor in the competitive equation. At least it is right now while we're all a bit "novice".

I also firmly believe that weight is a more important variable than in most other forms of motorsport.

These 2 points, coupled with the fact that the rallyX program is new, and its future is (or was) rather uncertain, led a few people to buy the "beaters". Old Japanese cars are light and durable. And if it's going to be a single purpose car, why not prep it to the limit? Even if it means taking body panels off?

Now we have drawn the line with the Dirtmaster, trying to keep it looking like a car from the outside. I would be OK with a rule like this - a car has to have most of its major exterior body parts still attached.

As for the unfair advantage of running a stripped car - we got 200 lb out of the Corolla. That includes removal of the the AC, rear bumper support, headlights, headlight motors, passenger seat, and the interior. We put the seat back in.

So I think stripping the interior alone is worth maybe 75 lb. Big deal.

That and consider that our car at 2140 as it sits is not much lighter than a stock Honda Civic at 2200. Stock ungutted CRXs are closer to 2000 lb. So ... What advantage?

Also, isn't Anders' car gutted? Isn't Matthew's gutted? What makes the Corolla or Sentra any different? Why do those cars seem to be the object of some angst?

As a final comment - now that the program is getting some legs, and since many of us can see how power and AWD are an advantage - many people are thinking about car upgrades.

The beaters just present a low cost of entry.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Here's my opinion on this...

I'd like to see our rallycross program eventually get as serious as our autocross program, with proper classing of vehicles and tight season points battles - between folks who show up with cars that are "prepped for their class" just like at our autoxes. I'm also hoping that we can find a site that will hold up to real rally tires, as I'd like to try them out rallycrossing before I eventually buy a rally car and start racing through the woods. Don't know how far off all this is, but it would be nice to start setting some rules for 2005 - based on current SCCA RallyCross rules.

I don't see any problem with running the stripped "beater" cars with the stock cars at this point, but when (if?) we get to the point where we have enough participation to start running real classes... well, they're going to have to be moved.

Hopefully there will be a turd class (gutted car, under 100hp). I fear the day I would have to run against anders car b/c we have a gutted interior...

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2001 Honda S2000 - SOLD
2012 Boss 302
2003 BMW 330i

What in the world are you driving the Sentra for? The Integra would be perfect. The Civic I used to own was a far better rallycross car than the Dirtmaster 1600. I wish I still had it for this.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

I can answer for Stephen: Between 4 people, I think they have a total of $300 in the car Why break a perfectly good car? - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Here's an opinion from someone driving a near-showroom prepped car: I don't mind the stripped down beaters. I think I do mind removed external body panels. Hoods, doors, and trunk lids should be retained. Again, like Carl, more for the appearance of onlookers than anything else. I'd rather not have people thinking that we're one step away from a figure-8 demolition derby. Also, like Kevin, I harbor delusions of real rally one day and would like to feel that our rallycross program is a stepping stone to that.

One other aspect regarding stripped beaters: trying to encourage people to use their regular cars will be much harder when the perception is that a rent-a-wreck is de rigueur.

Simon

Doesn't matter how crappy the car is, this picture:

http://kevinmallen.home.att.net/036.jpg

is enough to make me believe that none of my cars belong out there.

Scott

Gee. I already knew that about mine . . . even though one of them probably has less than 100 rwhp (114 crank) and does not have any interior trim panels

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Of course some of us have a beater PO@ that we drive daily.

Dick you could add some wheels like these to your 114 Hp car and run in the dirt.

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George Bright Member # 141
One of the youngest of the old farts.
Yes I voted against you joining the club.

OK, I have a comment about this. And beware, I'm going to pick on someone to make a point

I rode with Charlie on one of his runs. I think he is crazy for the way he was absolutely hammering the car into some of the rutted sections. My driving style and Charlie's couldn't be more different. I am very conservative, and brake maybe too much for the worst turns. If I'm going to cross the ruts, I try to do it with the wheel as straight as possible.

Now, does that mean he shouldn't be doing it? No. It's his car as much as it is mine, even if I think he's "endangering" it from time to time. He probably doesn't think as I do.

The point is, you wouldn't find a picture of the car being that unsettled when I drive it. You don't have to drive a car that "hard". Equipment conservation techniques are KEY in this sport. That poor little car just keeps on taking it though!

Every time I have seen a car blow a tire or bend a wheel - same thing. Too damn fast into a rutted corner with the steering turned. Bad for the car, usually bad for course time, and in a cumulative timed event, definitely bad for consistency and exposes risks which WILL hurt times.

That's my rant. Scott, either of your cars would be perfectly fine out there because I _know_ you would respect your car. Some people do not. And you would probably surprise yourself with how competitive you could be without having to upset the car that much.

Sorry if I have offended anyone This is just IMO.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

I have no issues, as I said, with old Japanese cars, or prepping cars to the limit. I just think removing body panels should perhaps be on the other side of the limit...

As for stripping interiors, this could be handled pretty easily by adding additional classes to separate "stock" vehicles from "modified" ones. This is also done in rally, so there's good precedent. But with the small entry fields we've got, I don't think there's any value in dividing classes over something that (at this level) doesn't make any difference in performance.

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Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

Neither my car or Matthew's former GTI (he sold it a couple weeks ago) is completely gutted. Both retained stock door panels in the driver and navigator area. The panels were modified only for the fitment of the roll cage.

In my car, the headliner was removed. (much more for ease of roll cage installation than performance) However, both of the seats have been repositioned for additional clearance. The seat mountings were cut up and custom brackets welded in. Folks that have ridden with me have experienced this, those that haven't can look at the picture below. Amy's cheekbone is parallel to the windowsill, she sits so low. You can clearly see that there is 6-12 inches of clearance, depending on who's sitting in the seat.

My seat has been moved both toward the center of the car, and lower down. You have to put your elbow above your shoulder if you want to rest it on the windowsill.

The rollcage has FIA padding for head impacts.



I would say the difference is that my car retained covering in the areas very close to the occupants (door panels) and that there was signifigant engineering done to change the position of the occupants to reduce the chances of coming in contact with the unprotected roof. It also has full harnesses and race seats to keep bodies from moving around, unlike the stock equipment in the Corolla/Sentra. Additionally, it was logbooked by an inspector that was looking for (in addition to regular stuff like cage construction) unsafe items, design concerns, sharp edges, and the like. The Subaru has also passed safety inspections under two different sets of sanctioning body rules (NASA and SCCA) preformed by both regional and national inspectors.

I think that there is a larger difference that the first blush "Look, both are missing some of the interior." The rally cars have been carefully evaluated by multiple people will crashing/rolling experience for safety to the occupants, and construction decisions in the cabin were made with safety, not lightness, as the priority.

Anders

side view of rally car passenger seat:
http://linaracing.com/pics/2003-sandbla ... -stage.jpg

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Lina Racing: As Seen On Radio

Well then by the logic of Anders and Carl, not trying to pick on you guys but, all the cars should have roll bars for safety.

I mean it sounds like you are using rally rules to justify the changes, and all of them require a roll bar of some type. I truely think you are shooting the rallyx program in the foot with this porposed change. If a POS like the dirtmaster 1600 can roll with little to no damage to itself, and none to its occupants I really don't see the need for a change.

As for exterior body panels, I think non removal is fine. Hell the only reason we did it the first time was more for the entertainment factor than anything else. And as far as the exterior appearance of the cars, really who cares. I have seen many a rusted out hooptie show up to the autox, and we don't kick them out.

I understand the rallyx is your baby, and without your efforts we wouldn't have it at all. But we barely have enough people to keep its head above water now. And I think having a beater with other owners that you can strip out and have fun with is a major draw for new people.

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91 Jetta GLI STS/DSP 111
85 Porsche 944 ASP 11
http://www.blackforestindustries.com

Whoa, hang on. You're confusing the issues. I am not talking about safety with my question.

Carl says that people see the stripped beaters at and "unfair advantage". I was asking what makes on gutted car different from another in this respect.

So the difference in "lightening" is a pair of door cards. What, 1 lb each?

Plus, most of "us" are coming from an autocross and track environment where removal of a door panel is perfectly normal and accepted.

Oh, and Anders - regarding safety. Just so we can put things in perspective here. I roadraced a Civic in NASA. It had a gutted interior, no door panels, and stock position seats. There were no more or fewer sharp edges inside that car than the Corolla. But to tell you the truth, I feel FAR safer driving the Corolla at 40 MPH in dirt with a stock belt anf no harnesses than I did dricing 100+ mph on track next to a dozen other cars.

Let's not all get into a big risk tolerance discussion. I know how all of these things end.

Everyone has their own personally acceptable level of risk, and I have found that it is not possible to convince someone to change their mind. All you can do is educate them.

So we need moreinformation, NOT necessarily ules.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1