Proposed new rule

Carl Fisher · **Posted:** Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:50 pm

I would like to institute a new rallycross rule that would require competition cars to have no sharp edges (ie. skin cut hazard) anywhere on their exterior surfaces or anywhere within reach of any interior seat. This would include sharp edges from rusted, missing, or cut body panels, exposed brackets or screw tips, or any exposed sharp stamped steel edge. Now that we have an acknowledged rollover risk, we should take it seriously. The rule will go into effect after a 2-week comment period, which starts now.

For those of you thinking that this sounds like a first step toward banning, or perhaps reclassifying, vehicles with severely gutted interiors and missing body panels, you might be correct.

Please reply only with comments on the proposed rule. For comments on running gutted and stripped cars, please go to the "Running Gutted And Stripped Cars" topic.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Is there precedent for a rule like this?

I know of no other car prep rules that take this into account - it's always been "driver beware".

If it is a common national rule, I might support it.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:13 pm

Carl Fisher wrote:

For those of you thinking that this sounds like a first step toward banning, or perhaps reclassifying, vehicles with severely gutted interiors and missing body panels, you might be correct.

As a part owner of a car that would be affected, let me just throw this out there. Could we not go to our fabric outlet of choice and buy XX yards of automotive grade carpet and "upolster" the problem areas (doors, roof, etc..) and meet the rule.

Is the car any safer? Marginally... Would this effect competitive ballance? Probably not. Will this cause otherwise el' cheepo beater owners to spend $$? Yes.

Im not in favor of the rule as proposed. If this were a common national rule, then why was it not in the rules from the start?

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:17 pm

As our interior would be impossible to be re-installed (it's in a a land fill somewhere by now) I'm not in favor of this either.

If I roll the car, don't worry I won't blame anyone else for my injuries if there are any. I know the risks and I'm willing to accept the consequences.

Kevin Hoff · **Posted:** Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:41 pm

I'm not in favor of such a rule. However, I think a common sense approach should be taken by the builders (wreckers?) of these cars.

I really don't see a need for a specific rule other than what should already be obvious during the safey inspection. We have Simon check out everything for tight wheels/batteries/working brakes/etc in tech why not also have him remark on things in the interior that might be dangerous (but not DQ based on that).

--Kevin H.

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:55 pm

I don't have a gutted car so I don't much care either way.

Other related remarks in the other thread.

shawnwhipple · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:28 pm **Posts:** 603

I'd be really careful about trying a rule like this. I wouldn't consider implementing it at least until next season and maybe even not until 2006. As thing sit now at least 25% of the entrants at this past weekends event were in cars that would be made illegal. If we chase those people off the program may not survive.

Speaking just for myself I'm not sure I'd be willing to invest any more money to make the beater meet this rule. At least not with the current sites and rule set.

I think I'd only be more willing to invest money into a car if we had a site with a firmer surface or if we could come up with some way to minimize the time delta between the first people that run and the last. As it sits right now rallycross is fun but the your chances of being competitive are zero if you don't get to run early.

Shawn

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

I'm all for making safety a priority, so I'd suggest that the people who strip the interior find some way of covering all the sharp edges. I know I'd want them covered if I was driving one of those cars. Maybe some of that rubberized stuff you spray on the bottom of a car? I'm not sure exactly how much a can of it costs, but I'm sure it's not as expensive as the co-pay to get your arm stitched up at the emergency room...

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:46 pm

As someone with a fully optioned, fully interiored car, I vote to leave things up to the competitor. I see no advantage of the rally beaters being gutted and lighter than my car. Granted, my car was not really bought for rallycross, but it has sat in the driveway a lot since I bought the Protege, so it might as well be a rally only car

Will I gut it? Not a chance. I'm not worryied about injury, I just don't want to do the work for something that driving ability and car prep factor in so little into the overall results. This is not saying that those who won didn't drive well, but as mentioned, course deterioration was the biggest factor. My times from my first run in the afternoon, 60.xxx, to my last run, 71.xxx, tells a huge story. 11 second differentials in autocross usually mean a spin. In this case, I was on my line and charging as hard as I could. The 60.xxx run even had Anders in the car, and 81 whp/83 lb ft tq tend not to like an additional 180+ pounds

If the rule goes through, we will probably lose 11-14 competitors, which could mean the entire rallycross program. I vote to leave it as is, beef up the waiver, and have fun. If someone gets hurt, I'm sure others will view their current situation and make changes. - AB

Carl Fisher · **Posted:** Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:01 pm

It is not a common rule in rallycross, as far as I can tell. But it seems to me to be a sensible one, does it not? As far as why it was not in the rules in the first place, well it's because I just adapted the club autocross rules a little to make them into the rallycross rules, and at that time I knew nothing of what kinds of other issues we might encounter.

Please note that I am not referring to any exposed metal edge- just sharp ones (skin cut hazard, I think I said in my original post). So, for example, if the edges of the holes in the inner door panels were rounded they would not be an issue.

So you could likely file many edges smooth. Or yeah Ryan, you could screw automotive carpeting over your rough edges. Or forget about the carpeting altogether and just use a boatload of duct tape (keeping with the "cheap and ugly" motif).

And yes, Matthew's and Anders' interiors are stripped, but I can virtually guarantee that you won't find any sharp edges within reach of their seats. I also feel fairly certain that this is the case with almost any rally car in the world. Though not apparently against SCCA ProRally rules, it is plain stupid.

bill gratton · **Posted:** Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:57 pm

I just ran my first RallyCross so not sure I even know what I"m talking about but that hasn't stoped me in the past. We sure want to stay safe (as we can with in reason). I beleive Carl only has the Club's best intrest in mind.
I only glanced in few Car's that ran this weekend and wish I could look at them again with this problem in mind. I am sure the experenced RAlly folks Car's are within the complince Carl's speaking of but as someone who drove a Striped Car, I may have just "assumed" everything was cool.
I noticed there were several New folks there Sunday and we really can't assume they won't strip there Beater car like they think We have done just because they can with out having some kind of precautions.
I'm thinking that Carl or one of the other experinced RAlly guy's must have seen some Car's that might have Issue's in this matter.
I for one, would like them to tell me if I have made an unsafe adjustment to my car. I saw know one wearing Arm Restraints and after hearing about these issues, wonder if that would be another 'Fix' We may need in the future. Harness?
I know the RallyCross program is just getting going and as much fun as it is, still may or maynot survie, these and other issues.
*********
In total, I HAVE KNOW IDEA WHAT TO DO. :shock:

Discusion can only help. Thanks All.
Bill Gra velllll ton

SimonWright · **Posted:** Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:24 pm

I can see the sense in Carl's suggestion. But I'm also afraid we might lose the program - we're marginal as it is.

I vote for it to be an "advisory" rather than a "rule" at least for this and next season and see where it goes.

When I teched cars on Sunday I did more than the basic battery-steering-throttle-wheels check: I kept my eyes open for any other issue that may affect safety or operation. I didn't note sharp edges but now that it's been brought to my attention I would point this out to a competitor if neccessary. It would have to be pretty seriously dangerous for me to consider a disqualification.

I did have some cars remove their hub caps since, theoretically they could be a hazard to course workers.

Simon

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

Seriously, people - even if somebody shows up with a car that's just waiting to cut its occupants to ribbons, I'm sure we can find a hammer & some Duck tape somewhere & make it safe.

If the interior is practically lined with razor blades, that's another issue - but if it's just a little sharp metal sticking out here & there, turn me loose on it for a few minutes and I'll make sure it's not disqualified.

:roll:

Carl Fisher · **Posted:** Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:59 pm

I agree with Kevin- it's unlikely that there's a sharp edge problem that can't be fixed "in the field" with available tools and/or duct tape. So this is not an issue we'll need to send people home for. I certainly don't see how we would "lose the program" over it, unless our beater owners are really unwilling to take a few simple steps to improve their vehicles' safety.

The reason I think it should be a rule rather than an "advisory" is so there won't be a question as to whether people need to deal with it immediately or not. If there's a sharp edge on a door pull bracket, I don't want to leave it at "I'll fix it for next time". Let's put a big ball of tape on it for now, and if they want to pretty it up later then they can.

AndersGreen · **Posted:** Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:05 am

MikeWhitney wrote:

Is there precedent for a rule like this?

If it is a common national rule, I might support it.

=======================================
FIA: Article 252 General prescriptions for rally cars. From article 7:

7.4 All body panels of the vehicle must be at all times of the same material as those of the original homologated car and must be of the same material thickness as that of the original homologated car (tolerance ± 10 %).

7.6 Any object of a dangerous nature (inflammable products, etc.) must be carried outside the cockpit.

=======================================
SCCA Rally Rulebook:

3.4.A.3 GENERAL APPEARANCE
All vehicles (entrant, support) at any ProRally Parc Expose
must be clean and neat in appearance.

6.4. MINIMUM SCRUTINEERING REQUIREMENTS
A.12:
12. Hoods must be fixed closed with hood pins accessible from theoutside. Other fastening devices (inside or outside) must be rendered inoperative except for the secondary catch.

CLASS DEFINITION:
10.2.B.5 Bodywork:
a. Exterior panels, except for allowed flares, must be
visually similar to the original components, including
bumpers. Except for doors, bolt-on body pieces may
be constructed of an alternate material. Roof
mounted, commercially available cooling vents are
allowed. Any significant deviations from road-going
components available from the manufacturer of that vehicle
must be approved in advance by the PRB.

For Prduction classes, 24.o:
p. The rear seat, headliner, and trim pieces from the "B" pillar rearward may be removed. All door panels may be
modified for clearance of the roll cage, but all OEM door
panels shall be retained.

25: Coach Work
Carpets and their associated padding may be removed. The
front seats shall be replaced with seating per Article 5.
Standard seat/shoulder belts may be removed. The glove boxdoor may be removed or replaced. Passive restraints, including air bags, shall be removed or disabled.

=======================================
Canadian Rules:
D General Regulations
1. Bodywork.
(a) Bodywork must be without visible damage or perforation from corrosion which would detract from the good appearance of the vehicle.

=======================================
NASA Rally rules
3.1.3 Vehicle Eligibility

Vehicles eligible for events must be production based four wheeled passenger vehicles generally available for purchase by the general public. "One-of" vehicles specially built from the ground up for competition use is prohibited. To this end, the frame, floor pan, basic body shell, and firewall must remain original but may be modified for strength or to accommodate legal components. Exterior panels, including fenders, engine hood and trunk lid of hatchback must be present and visually similar to the original components.

3.2.3.3 Authorized Modifications
b. Exterior pieces (i.e.: all components licked by the air stream) must be visually similar to the original item, including bumpers.

=======================================
So, for rally, it's pretty clear you can't remove exterior body panels, hoods, or trunks. Interior stripping is generally allowed in open class cars, but not completely in Production based cars, with some variations. So I'd say there's a fairly worldwide consensus within the rally community on those issues, along the lines Carl is going.

Anders[/i]

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