What Is The Ideal "Beater" Rallycross Car!!

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Richard Casto wrote:

Kevin Hoff wrote:

Yeah there is this fallacy that rallycross is hugely destructive to a car.

Take this with a grain of salt as I have not participated or watched (other than posted videos) and throw in a bit of "devils advocate" but

....

If you want to know why more people don't try it, well, we hear stories of rolled cars, multiple cars with tires that have the bead broken on the tires from hitting ruts hard, damage to CV joint boots, people renting cars vs. driving there own, etc. :shock:

So for me I see rallycross as having all of the risks of autocross plus the fact that you are more likely to damage your car on-course than you are with autocross.

I think if you want converts, you need to not downplay the risks to your car. What you rou really need to play up why it is fun and be honest with respects to the risks. I know that this has got to be great fun and will give it a try as soon as I can. But not in my current daily driver/autocross car. :thumbsup:

Anders is right on.

Repeat after me: You will only damage your car at a Rallycross if you drive TOO FAST IN THE SLOW PARTS.

That's what is causing the tire bead breakage, bent wheels, and the roll. If you brought your street Civic out and just decided to slow down where you should and an appropriate amount, it would do just fine.

Slowing the heck down when needed and keeping the car from sliding into the soft stuff is absolutely the fast way around the course. People were teasing me for braking early and for giving up speed for a tighter line last weekend. See what that got me? Conservatism in tight corners is KEY to a good time.

People, we do not need to be damaging cars - tires, wheels, or otherwise. If you are, you're doing something wrong AND being uncompetitive.

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

I just want to point out that you can:

a) just drive the crap out of your car, run into ruts sideways, hit bumps at full throttle, etc. until your car falls apart.

b) look ahead & plan ahead, and go around ruts or bumps to keep your car safe, because most of the course will be okay & that's where you can have your fun - and if you don't finish, you'll lose anyway.

I choose option b), because I don't want to destroy my car. Fortunately, my car is fast enough through the rest of the course that I can take it easy through the rough stuff.

It's all about having fun, and nobody is going to force you to drive your car irresponsibly. I wouldn't recommend people bring their stiffly-sprung & lowered autox or track cars out, but most stock or close to stock cars should be fine.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Wed May 26, 2004 3:33 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

[
Slowing the heck down when needed and keeping the car from sliding into the soft stuff is absolutely the fast way around the course. People were teasing me for braking early and for giving up speed for a tighter line last weekend. See what that got me? Conservatism in tight corners is KEY to a good time.

Whitney is DEAD right on this one. The afternoon course didnt get as rutted up as the morning, but it still had a few "churned" up sections. I tried and tried and tried to drive the entire course without lifiting. It just didnt work, I was too out of shape and had to constantly catch the car. Shawn even commented how out of shape I had the car where it didnt need to be. I just couldnt get my head out of my ass....

First fun run, I dial it back going into the "questionable" sections, it was my fastest afternoon run. My second fun run felt even better but the timer screwed up and I didnt get a time, but Im sure it was at least a 1/2 second faster. I would have trophied with my first fun run instead of my last timed run

2 morals of the story, Listen to Whitney and Shawn and SLOW DOWN TO GO FAST!!!

Kevin Hoff · **Posted:** Wed May 26, 2004 3:59 pm

I stand behind my statement that rallycross is as non-abusive as driving your car fast on dirt can be. That said, I do understand why some people are having some, ahem, issues... They are approaching rallycross the same way they approach autocross and trying to drive absolutely 100% on every run. This is a bad idea as _all_times_are_added_ in rallycross. It's almost impossible to make up for hitting cones and FTD on a single run means absolutely nothing. Driving cleanly and fairly similar to autocross lines at 95% is the way to do well at rallycross.

Also, as I understand, _all_ of the blown tire beads were because people didn't crank up the tire pressures. I may be wrong on this but everyone I talked to said "oh yeah, we didn't check the tire pressure..."

--Kevin H.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Kevin Hoff wrote:

Also, as I understand, _all_ of the blown tire beads were because people didn't crank up the tire pressures. I may be wrong on this but everyone I talked to said "oh yeah, we didn't check the tire pressure..."

--Kevin H.

Nope, ours happened at 40+ psi in January. As I watched one driver slam sideways into some ruts, I was thinking, "hope he doesn't break a bead".

Carl Fisher · **Posted:** Wed May 26, 2004 4:38 pm

AndersGreen wrote:

The chance of damage to your car is directly proportional to how hard you drive it.

Hmm. I would agree with that in terms of speed over rough sections, but I don't think that's where our problems have been. It seems to me that most, if not all, of the vehicle damage has come from people sliding into ruts too fast and at too sharp an angle- that's really a driving technique issue, not an aggressiveness issue. I presume that corner entry technique was taught at the school...

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Wed May 26, 2004 4:46 pm

Kevin Hoff wrote:

If I owned a Miata or the like I would not hesitate to rallycross it. Dirt washes off easily.

--Kevin H.

But you will need a Solo 1 approved rollbar for the Miata. Solo 2 has no such requirement.

AndersGreen · **Posted:** Wed May 26, 2004 4:54 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

Kevin Hoff wrote:

Also, as I understand, _all_ of the blown tire beads were because people didn't crank up the tire pressures.

Nope, ours happened at 40+ psi in January.

I had one flat during the fun runs. Driver's front. Had one at the school as well, but I've figured out what's happening: progressive massive air loss. Hit a berm or rut, sidewall "burps" some air out. The next run around, now with less pressure, a flat/debead. Last time it was noticable (the run prior to trouble) but this time I wasn't driving, so can't say.

I set all mine to 41 this time around, and they went up to 43 by the time I checked them when I re-filled the flat, but I'll confess to not checking them between runs. I will in the future.

Anders

Kevin Hoff · **Posted:** Wed May 26, 2004 5:31 pm

OK I guess I'm more or less deluding myself -- rallycross is apparently significantly harder on a car than autocross.

I personally don't care though. It's the most fun I've had in a car since I started to autocross and at least in a WRX the damage is minimal/nonexistent.

--Kevin H.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Wed May 26, 2004 5:50 pm

Hey, I also don't want to be viewed as the guy that gives Rallycross a hard time. :oops:

I will be out doing this as soon as I am able to work out a ride that does not include my daily driver. It is just a personal comfort level thing for me with my own car. Maybe we can have "Rally Beater 2.0" and I will buy in.

I will also say that I can and will do stupid stuff while autocrossing. Right now that translates nearly 100% of the time into either a really bad time or a DNF. I just still hear stuff like "if you drive smart you will not have problems". I just hope I drive smart enough to stay out of trouble. :roll:

But I will also say that the point about not having to drive full 10/10ths all of the time ala autocross is actually something that I personally would like. I like the idea about adding up the time. I had totally forgotten about that aspect of Rallycross.

I was just trying to point out the thinking of someone who is currently on the fence.

AndersGreen · **Posted:** Wed May 26, 2004 9:04 pm

Richard Casto wrote:

But I will also say that the point about not having to drive full 10/10ths all of the time ala autocross is actually something that I personally would like.

Yes, it's a different strategy. I'll confess I often throw it out the window and use this as a chance to attempt 10/10ths driving. Change cones to trees, a empty field to a forest, second gear to fourth, and a flat field to a mountain... I don't attempt 10/10ths at a rally.

8/10ths at a rallycross would certainly be more competitive. :oops:

Anders

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Miles, how about this one?

FOR SALE: 1993 Mazda 323 - $1400.00

145k miles, 5 speed, new clutch, 4 new tires, tune up, and
inspection....call for details. Very well maintained.
This car runs perfectly and is mechanic owned. The car needs nothing
mechanically but has some dents on the passenger fender and the
hood from a branch falling on it during an ice storm. The rest of the
car is in great shape. This is a great running commuter car that gets
excellent gas mileage.
Todd 969-9083

(not a picture of the actual car for sale!)

... could be this:

[/img]

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Here's another:

1991 Saturn SL2 (4-door sedan), 185k miles, 5-speed manual
transmission, new clutch, master/slave cylinder, 4 new tires (<1 yr
old), alternator (3 yrs old). Runs good, reliable daily driver, gets
30-32 mpg city, 35-38 highway. A/C does not work(probably just needs
to be recharged), ceiling headliner fabric is gone.

- THIS CAR WAS TOTALED ~5 years (85k miles) ago. The damage was to the
body panels and frame. Body panels are cracked. Alignment is okay but
trunk does not close completely, though it can be secured with a
simple ingenious hardware rig we'll show you.

- It still runs great. I've driven it with no problems from the body
damage for the last 5 years. It's been very reliable and may have many
more miles in it.

- $500 or best offer (need to sell by early June)

We are located in Durham.

(^^ not the actual car!!)

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Thu May 27, 2004 3:21 pm

Why do it at all if you aren't willing to do it right:

Ford RS200 rally car (used)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... egory=6057

Too expensive?

This looks like a fun one, at least it's painted like a Rally car!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... egory=6055

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Miles, I have been thinking about your original question some more. In Rallycross, it seems to me that the car is even less of a factor than in autocross. You just want something that meets the following:

- Durable
- Lightweight
- Makes decent HP
- You aren't worried scratching or chipping the paint, and dragging the front spoiler and underside once in a while.

Unlike autocross, you don't need to worry too much about classing. The above reasons are why any 5-15 year old FWD Japanese or German econobox will do great in SU2 at least (for now). Personally I think weight is the biggest factor in car performance for rallycross. So those old cheap cars are perfect!

If I had to do the rally-beater all over again, I think we would have ponied up the money for something more powerful and more modern. CRX / Civic Si / GTI / Scirocco / even Saturn (cheap) come to mind. Basically anything that people make into ITA, ITB, ITC race cars these days. A Sentra SE-R (with VLSD) would be awesome. But the Corolla isn't really holding anyone back ... yet

I would also be really curious to see if a Miata (being a comparable but RWD car) can be competitive with the FWD cars.

As for taking street cars out there, just ask yourself this : do you drive your car on gravel roads? If the answer is yes, then it will be fine at a rallycross. I won't drive on gravel if I can avoid it in my "good" cars. I spend too much time nitpicking the paint and cleaning stuff to do that.

If I were you, I'd take the Firebird out there! That would be SWEET to drive at a rallycross! (Or does that car violate rule #1 from the list above?)

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