THSCC Forums

So we're having a running problem with the Lemons car, a 1988 Acura Integra (D16A1, 1.8l DOHC, PGM-FI, electronic advance), and we're looking for ideas from any of you Honda gurus out there...

We took the car for testing to VIR a few weekends ago and it ran great but toward the end of the day it began to lose power (completely) at high rpms after being driven hard for a while. Here is some info:

- When the car is cool or cold, power is good, revs right up to revlimit
- During a session, takes about 2-3 laps, then power starts cutting near redline, and gets worse and worse (lower and lower RPM cutout) until power is cutting at 3k rpm and the car is basically undriveable. Park it for 15 minutes and it's back to normal.
- The power cuts out very abruptly -- below the cutoff RPM the engine feels good
- There is no power available at all above the cutout RPM (not a "hiccup")
- Obviously it is heat related
- The problem may be getting worse, but since it is so hard to duplicate (track conditions only) it is hard to tell
- Driving the car on the street (what little we can, not street legal) we cannot reproduce the problem even with repeated 1st gear pulls to revlimit
- The tach and all other lights/gauges are working FINE when the cutout occurs -- no bouncing tach, no warning lights
- Engine always starts easily and overall power/torque/throttle response is very good

Here's the condition of the car:
- 240k miles, fresh fluid, fresh air filter, 93 octane gas, no vacuum leaks
- New plugs, good plug wires (no arcing seen), new cap and rotor
- Took distributor apart, everything appears in good condition
- Tested the coil, good cold resistances, no cracks
- Ignitor is not original, but I don't know how old it is
- Ground wires, ECU, and ECU harness is in good shape
- There is ONE engine code -- 17 -- for Vehicle Speed Sensor, which I do not believe would cause this problem (although I'd love for someone to tell me wrong)
- Fuel pressure is fine, tested on the street with 1st gear pulls
- Main relay has been reflowed, so it shouldn't be a problem (if it was relay related, I would expect to see the tach flicker when cutout occurs)

With the nature of the cutout I suspect ignition problems. I have owned many Hondas over the last 15 years and have lost a few distributors (one ignitor, one self-destructing center shaft) and this is not failing in a way I consider typical of Honda distributor failures.

Since the car isn't throwing any other CEL codes, I'm not sure where else to look. I don't think we have a fuel problem. Since the problem started, we got a parts car so I now have a full set of spares. We are also taking the car back to the track this weekend, but since the problem is so elusive and time will be tight I am not sure what things to check or swap first.

Ideas? Theories about what is wrong? Suggestions for things to test, check, or swap? What parts *could* be causing the problem, and what can be swapped in 15 minutes at the track for testing?

Thanks for any input.

Mike Whitney

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Mike, it sounds an awful lot like what happened with Tim Aro's 10AE back when he autocrossed that. IIRC, it was coil packs that were getting too hot and malfunctioning. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

fuel pump

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Mike - hop onto roadraceautox.com and ask Richard Floyd (1gCRX90). He raced a 1st-generation Integra in ITA, then in ITB, for a few years. I bet he'd know.

Has that engine got a knock sensor? Seems unlikely, but if it does, is it possible that it's falsing and pulling back timing unnecessarily?

My experience, as you know, is with 88-91 CRX Sis, and my 95 Integra GS-R. From that experience, main relays would have the fuel pump not clicking on when you turn the key to the "On" position. It was a bad igniter - inside the distributor - which caused the jumping tach.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

There are a lot smarter people here than myself, but here are my 2 cents...

#1 suspect… as you already said... ignition. Is it possible you might have the wrong code and it’s not a speed sensor? I have a later D16 engine in my civic and don’t know if your distributor is like mine, but there are a few sensors in the distributor housing (such as the cylinder position sensor IIRC.) I could see if one of those started to get flaky when hot that it might not give the proper advance at high RPM? Or something else is breaking down under heat and just not throwing a code yet.

#2 suspect… fuel. But if it was fuel issues, I might expect it to at least rev up at lower throttle once back in the pits.

What would I do if I was ready to just start swapping parts at the track? I would swap out the entire distributor housing with a new/known good unit.

Wacky idea is to try to ice down somehow the component that you suspect may be overheating and see if that shortens the 15 minute cool down period.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Is this a Vtec engine? If so, my understanding from the D/E Mod list is that various conditions will disable Vtec. Oil pressure, temp, ???

Dick

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

IIRC, it's '89 Acura Integra, so it was a few years prior to VTEC. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

While you're checking stuff don't forget to check the air flow/pressure sensor, whichever that car uses.

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In need of car.

Wait, you're doing 2 test days with a LeMons car before the race??


THAT's the problem, you've angered the crapcan race car gods......






We'll be lucky to be able to drive our car up onto the trailer before leaving for CMP.

could it be your tep sensor? if it is faulty and reading incorrectly it would cause the computer to mistakenly adjust the a/f ratio.

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#77 nasa spec 3
e36 M3

Yeah tell me about it. The first test day was for fun and to see if we could break anything. We were pretty pleased with the car until this crap happened... The worst possible kind of running problem for an event like Lemons -- after 20 minutes on track the car won't rev past 3500 rpm. Didn't really expect such a weird problem.

We've put so much time and money into the prep that I'm bound and determined to have a car that will finish the *$!% race! Better to be chasing this now than having to sit in the sand at CMP and watch everyone drive around the track!

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Good call, I have a spare now and will put it on the list of stuff to swap if the problem is still there...

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

If it's like my prelude it will have more than one. Make sure you pick the right one...

My prelude had....
One for the gauge
One for the aux fans
One for the ECU

Talk about the wrong way to do something... They were all next to each other in the head though.

Michael, did you have a problem with the TW sensor? Did the car throw a code?

The integra has a big one in the head, a small one in the head, and a big one in the radiator!

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

mike if you want to try a coil i have one at work. i was thinking coil distributor. My zc in my crx did that way back in the day! took the spare out of the trunk and kept rolling.

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