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 Post subject: What Miata to buy...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:35 pm 
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proud papa!!1!
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So, I can't help myself, it seems I am destined to join the Miata clan eventually, it's just such an affordable midlife crisis.

So, what do I want to own? I've seen a few '99 Sport package models listed for under $11,000, and they have modest (<80,000) mileage.

I'm also looking at an ad for a *local* '94 R package, with hardtop for under $6000, but it is about 124,000 miles.

The obvious advantage to getting the first gen is that I can probably avoid a bank loan...

I've already swapped a couple of Miata clutches, so maintainence doesn't seem so bad, plus the Mazda racer support appears to be a good deal. With pleasant weather rolling in, it sure seems like a good idea to get a convertible... I know I can do the research to find out what to watch out for, but is there really *anything* that can go wrong with these cars? Worst case, what am I out? A new crate engine? Or a winter time engine rebuild (neither are particularly challenging). If the AC works (assuming it has it), and the lifters don't rattle too much, what else is there? I'm looking for stock class cars only...

Anyone selling?

Scott


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 5:03 pm 
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Hmmm...Feeling some deja vu here.

From a bone stock perspective, a 94/97 M1 is probably the car to have due to better torque curve. It's going to be more fun to drive on a daily basis. The R package is the ultimate M1, but they seem to command a premium over the other 1.8 M1 cars. $6K is a lot, even with the hard top. Don' t rule out the "M package" cars - you still get the Torsen, but not the suspension goodies.

I went with the 1.6 because of the dirt cheap crate motor. I'll be going forced induction eventually, and if I grenade the motor, I'll go with a new motor for peace of mind.

I really don't know of any glaring weak mechanical point for any post '91 Miata. Both the 1.6 and the 1.8 are pretty bulletproof to well over 100K with average maintenance.

Is the Sunbird finally going away?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:04 pm 
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Tom makes good points. A couple of other points:
ABS is a rare option, although it was standard on '95 and '96 M models. The M models also had the Torsen standard although it was standard on other packages (like PEP) too.
Only real engine "problem" is early first gen cars and the short nose crank. The limited slip on early cars was a clutch pack, not sure when the Torsen came along.
Even the HLA "tap" that some Miata's are famous for seems to do little harm.
Frank


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:30 pm 
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Totally Lacking an Inner Alien
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Scott,

I had both a gen 1 (96) and a Gen 2 (99). Loved them both. My brother has a 91 (now turboed). The early gen 1's (1.6) are a little short on power, Tom's car proved that sat. The late Gen 1's (1.8) had better power but more weight. Accelleration wasn't that much different but the car "felt" stronger. The Gen 2 was a different car altogether, more power (140 at the crank) and a little better looks IMO. But again it weighed more. The engines ARE bullet proof. Jim has proved that. Franks point about the nose crank would be my reason to stay away from the 1.6's, though my brother hasn't had any problems with his.

Damn, now you have me wanting one again.!!! Time to break the news to Rebecca. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:19 pm 
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Wow, my 94 rwhp Miata is getting busted on in 2 threads at the same time. I think I need a turbo...

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'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:11 pm 
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Just call me Bo

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Just to clear some things up...

There is nothing wrong with the 1.6L's other than they are a little down on power compared to the 1.8L's. But they did feature a shorter final drive (4.3 -vs- 4.1) which helped make up for the difference. They also had a smaller ring gear which could be an issue if you’re looking for big power. While the 1.8L rear ends are usually good until about 300rwhp with “normal” use, the 1.6L rears have been known to grenade with power approaching 200rwhp-- sometimes earlier.

All 90 models and early 91 models had a “short nose” crank which, if improperly maintained (namely during a timing belt replacement) could cause major motor issues. With proper maintenance, lots of these motors have seen over 200k trouble free miles without issue. Late 91 models through 93 featured a “big nose” crank which was pretty much impervious to a botched timing belt job. There was actually an intermediate crank on the late 91 models but it was essentially equivalent to the later cranks. The 92 and 93 models also featured a little more bracing than the earlier cars but nothing that can’t easily be duplicated by aftermarket pieces.

The 1.6L cars had a viscous LSD available which gives mixed results. It was generally effective but did tend to wear out over time with hard use. Most of them at this point are essentially open unless they were babied.

The 1.8L cars had 2 types of torsen LSD’s available called, strangely enough, Type I and Type II. I believe the switch over was in 96. The differences were subtle and had to do with the amount of locking under braking I think. There is a write up on Miata.net describing them in detail for anybody interested. If you’re planning on getting a 1.8L Miata and using it for anything other than street driving, these are obviously highly recommended.

Starting in 94, they went to the 1.8L motor, taller final drive, bigger brakes, more bracing and dual air bags. As mentioned above, the cars also got a hair heavier. All 94 models and early 95 models are OBDI which if you’re looking to modify one, can be a minor issue. Many consider the 94 and early 95 models to be the ideal starting platform for a turbo/supercharged car. All late 95 models through 97 were OBDII equipped so if you’re looking to dodge the upcoming emissions standards, it might be a consideration. The 96 and 97 cars also got a slight bump in hp but with a bit more added weight, it is a wash with the earlier 1.8L cars.

In the U.S., there were no 98 Miatas. They did exist in other countries, however. Why? No idea…

Besides the obvious body changes, the 99 and above cars got a few other changes. They got a slight bump in hp and went back to the 4.3 final drive for the 5-speed cars. The 6-speed cars have a 3.9 final drive but the intermediate gears are shorter so it doesn’t really buy you anything on the highway. In other words, 5th gear and 6th gear with their respective trannys and final drives wind up being a wash. You just wind up shifting more with the 6-speed to get there. For auto-x, the short 2nd gear in the 6-speed can sometimes help and sometimes hurt-- it totally depends on the course. Most people that add power to the late cars prefer the 5-speed but some swear by the 6-speed with the “European” 3.6 final drive. It all comes down to personal preference.

Some 99 (and possibly very early 00) engines had an issue with improper thrust bearings being installed from the factory. This would cause the motor to eventually self-destruct but Mazda did replace them under warranty even if it had expired. The symptoms were a wobbly crank pulley and should be easily identified at this point.

Finally, the 99 and 00 motors featured essentially 2 intake tracts which were switched over by the ECU at a designated rpm. All 01 and above cars featured VVT which is essentially Mazda’s version of Vtec but not nearly as effective. The 01 motors were rated higher than the 99 and 00 motors but there was a big stink when owners discovered that they were putting down the same dyno numbers as the 99 and 00 motors. This is where Mazda developed it’s current “oops” policy currently going on with the RX8. Oops indeed! I’m pretty sure that the 01+ motors require premium gas if that is a factor while 99 and 00 motors only need 87 octane. 99 and 00 owners please correct me if I’m wrong on this point.

Also, the 99+ cars got a little change in front end geometry which lowered the roll center and gave a decent improvement in handling. They also featured more rear suspension travel which helps if you plan on lowering the car.

Anyway, as usual, I’ve rattled on enough. If you’re just looking for a car as a daily driver/weekend getaway car, I would probably go with a 99 or 00 model. They are definitely a little bit more refined than the previous generation.

I would definitely take an extended ride in the 94 R package if you’re going for a stock car. The R package cars (as well as 93LE’s) featured very stiffly valved Bilstien shocks that might be a little more than you want. Maybe you can hit Mike Whitney up for a ride assuming he hasn’t replaced his shocks yet. The upside is that those shocks seem to last forever unlike the regular Miata shocks.

If you’re looking for an all out performance car, I would go with either a 94/early 95 model or a dirt cheap but clean 1.6L car with the intention of replacing the motor with a 1.8L eventually. An early car plus with a 1.8L and 4.3 final drive makes a decently quick and cheap car for a midlife crisis. :)

Bottom line: the cars are essentially bulletproof if you treat them fairly without many “gotachs” to look out for.

Disclaimer: all of this is off the top of my head so if I got anything wrong, sorry!

I’ll shut up now…

Jim


Last edited by JamesFeinberg on Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:38 pm 
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All looked correct to me with the exception that OBD-II testing has already started in a number of NC counties including Wake and Durham.
Not sure if any aftermarket ECUs support OBD-II although a "piggyback" solution is available for the '99 and later cars which I assume means that OBD-II codes are still available.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 11:29 pm 
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Some of you "old timers" may remember that I got started in all of this because of my '91 (which I bought in Oct of '91 & still have -- with all of ~ 50K on it now). I can vouch for (1) the clutch-type LSD being gone after ~ 3 yrs of autoXing, but not much more & (2) the '92s & up having less "after-shock" vibration, if you're interested in street ride.

Also, for some reason, mine started overheating fairly easily shortly before I started autoXing the Neon (which only happened when I ran out of BFGs for the Miata, tried the Neon (under grand protest, I might add) & discovered that it was a damn sight easier for me to keep the tail behind me, instead of in front of me!). I use to read all of the Miata Mags I got & think I remember the overheating prob being not so uncommon in the early models, but I've only done routine maintenance to try to resolve that issue. BTW, anybody know the real source of this issue? If I could get that fixed, I might bring the thing out every now & then.

But, I still love that little car. Personal opinion is that you can't go but so wrong with any model you get. That's why mine still bears the license plate MYOBCSHN. :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:02 am 
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Got Powah?
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Wow, Jim, that was an AMAZINGLY good writeup. About the best I have seen for describing important year-to-year changes. Nice!

What you say about the Bilsteins on the 93 LE is right. That is one damn stiff riding car. Handles great, though. And it definitely needs another 100 or so HP :) My 90 Civic Si street car is a lot quicker and torquier. But my original plan with the Miata was to go FI eventually anyways!

My take on the whole Miata thing - buy whatever year model you can afford. Sounds like they are all good, but the gooder ones are more than the less good ones.

Scott, if you ever want to swap cars for a few hours to see if you can live with a 1.6, lemme know.

Personally if I were you I would go for a 99 Sport like we talked about.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:31 am 
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Just call me Bo

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Emmie Fisher wrote:
Also, for some reason, mine started overheating fairly easily shortly before I started autoXing the Neon (which only happened when I ran out of BFGs for the Miata, tried the Neon (under grand protest, I might add) & discovered that it was a damn sight easier for me to keep the tail behind me, instead of in front of me!). I use to read all of the Miata Mags I got & think I remember the overheating prob being not so uncommon in the early models, but I've only done routine maintenance to try to resolve that issue. BTW, anybody know the real source of this issue? If I could get that fixed, I might bring the thing out every now & then.


I've never really heard of a chronic overheating problem with the early Miatas. They are a little sensitive to having all the components in good working order so perhaps it’s just something you’ve overlooked?

The first 2 things I would check is the coolant mixture ratio and make sure you have a good radiator cap. I run a 20/80 antifreeze/water ratio in the summer and 40/60 in the winter. You might want to start with a good flush before replacing the coolant.

We were fighting cooling issues recently in Kristin’s BMW and I discovered that her previous mechanic put 100% antifreeze in the cooling system. Yikes! Needless to say, after replacing it with a 40/60 mix, the cooling problems completely disappeared-- along with any confidence in her previous mechanic.

The radiator cap is especially important with these cars and I’ve seen cases where brand new caps weren’t holding sufficient pressure. If you’ve never replaced it, I would try one from Flyin’ Miata (use the search box for “radiator cap”). They stock a 16psi model that is sometimes hard to find at local auto parts stores.

If that doesn’t do the trick, I would replace the thermostat too see if that has any effect. Try to use an OEM ‘stat or at the very least a decent brand like Stant. Stay away from the cooler opening ones (~160 degrees) that some people like to use.

Other than that, about the only thing left to try is replacing the water pump and the radiator itself. If you’re approaching the 60K mile mark, you’re about due for a timing belt change anyway. If you going to replace the timing belt, you might as well replace the water pump while you’re in there. They are supposedly good until the 120K mile service but I have heard of them failing before that mark. It is fairly rare for that to happen but they do tend to degrade in performance before they give up all together. Considering the one in your car is possibly over 10 years old, it might not be a bad idea to take a look at it.

If none of that works, I have a known good radiator for the 1.6L cars you are more than welcome to have.

Jim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:37 am 
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Just call me Bo

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Oh, I just thought of something else. Miatas do tend to be a little bit sensitive to having something placed in front of the radiator. If you have an aftermarket bug screen/grill or the (in)famous shark’s teeth, you might try removing it to see if that has any effect. I’ve also heard of cases where a front mounted license plate causes slight overheating issues in warmer climates.

Jim


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:44 am 
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Thanks for all the good tips, James. One of these days I'll get back to work on that prob & try your suggestions in order. I think I first went after it with a coolant flush & replacement, but that's been a long time ago; so, I'll just start all over trying different things.

Thanks!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:15 pm 
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proud papa!!1!
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Back to the top... Rumor is the SCCA isn't going to make my car a GS car any time soon, so *maybe*, just maybe the Miata will be a more viable option.

Question: How do you know a '99 "Sport" package when you see one? I prefer to get the 5 speed over the 6 (the 6 speed makes it easy to know what you have).

Edit: I guess I recall the front strut brace being a give-away. ANy other ways? (VIN number methods would be best).

Scott


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:40 pm 
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Another option is the current model Club Sport Edition. There are rumored to be a few left in the pipeline and Mazda is giving incredible discounts to people who actually intend to race them. The prices being discussed are $14k after rebates!

--Kevin H.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:22 pm 
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I got a SUX2000!
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Judging by the results at Topeka, the 99 is the one to have. Apart from that, it depends on what you're doing with it.

For the Spec Miata crowd, every time I've asked which motor is better, the answer has been the 1.6. 1.8s have to run a restrictor plate, and I believe you can put all the 1.8 bracing on a 1.6 if you want to. For Improved Touring, the 1.8s are in ITS (!!!) and the 1.6 is in ITA, where only Bowie Gray has been making much of a case for the car in SEDiv.

For CSP I'd say get the cheapest, lightest one you can find and put a larger motor in it. Travis recently wrapped up his MY2000 1.8L swap into his 92. I rode in it today. Pretty damn quick Miata with no tuning at all. Getting everything to work was a bit of a chore but he finally got it.

Thats about all I know. Personally I'd get an MR2 Spyder, but I'm biased.

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