Honda gurus check in- My ITR is sick

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2007 10:36 am

From Honda-tech:
Last weekend at the autocross, my car starts making a slight knocking/ticking noise as soon as I get it parked in grid- literally 5 minutes before my first run. At first I thought it may be misfiring but it doesn't quite show the symtoms (the RPM's are stready). I haven't yet got a CEL either.
I really don't have a good way to describe the sound. It basically sounds similar to the noisy valvetrain our cars have but louder. Also, it increases with the speed of the engine. The sound is definately on the driver's side of the engine, around the crank pulley/power steering pump area.

The vtec is non-operational. It's engaged a few times at 6k like normal, but for the most part it's not working 90% of time.

Background:

My '97 is 100% stock with 82k and has never had any mods and has never had any engine work performed. I'll soon be replacing the original timing belt, water pump, and tensioner.

I've spoke with a few folks and I've been told it may be the oil pump going out. It's looking like it may be a good idea to go ahead with the belt change and do the oil pump while everything's apart. Apparently there are splines/gears on the pump that wear out and this may be attributed to the vtec problem.

Any insight, experiences, ideas?

thanks!

-Matt (stressing down in NC)

MarcusMcRae · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2007 11:10 am

That sucks! Does oil pressure drive the Vtack system? If so, the oil pump might be the problem.

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

VTEC will not engage if oil pressure isn't high enough (oil pressure is what drives the pin that engages VTEC), so that might be your problem. Back when I had my integra GSR (disclaimer, I was younger and dumber then), I was running my car and noticed VTEC wasn't engaging and got a CEL. I took it into the dealer, and it was low oil pressure that was causing it not to engage, b/c the car was 2 quarts low on oil (probably b/c the nitrous had demolished the rings, long story, the engine wasn't healthy), so an oil pump problem can definitely manifest itself as a VTEC problem. I got a CEL from this though, its odd to me that you haven't gotten one yet.

Michael Westerfield · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2007 11:37 am

I agree with the others... sounds like the oil pump could be suspect.

Being that the oil pressure sensor doesn't go off for the light on the dash til <2psi or something like that I would try not to drive it much til you know for sure.

The VTEC sylenoid takes ~50psi to activate. I usally see 75+ at WOT after 2500 rpms or so though.

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

Michael Westerfield wrote:

Being that the oil pressure sensor doesn't go off for the light on the dash til <2psi or something like that I would try not to drive it much til you know for sure.

this would explain why my poor abused integra had a CEL, but Matt's hopefully healthier integra is only manifesting intermittent VTEC engagement without a CEL. I would definitely take it easy on the car until you get it resolved, as your engine is significantly more expensive than mine was.

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2007 11:48 am

BriceJohnson wrote:

Michael Westerfield wrote:

Being that the oil pressure sensor doesn't go off for the light on the dash til <2psi or something like that I would try not to drive it much til you know for sure.

this would explain why my poor abused integra had a CEL, but Matt's hopefully healthier integra is only manifesting intermittent VTEC engagement without a CEL. I would definitely take it easy on the car until you get it resolved, as your engine is significantly more expensive than mine was.

Yeah it's definately staying parked even though I raced on it with no vtec in Sanford. :roll:

Dumb thing #5456943796 that I've done...

Anyhow, I may just go ahead and order up all the parts I need for the t-belt change plus the oil pump.

That's crazy that the oil pressure can be so minimal without throwing a code/CEL.

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

You probably aren't that bad off having raced on it, I beat the living shit out of mine when I ran it 2 qts low, and it didn't cause any additional damage. My engine eventually died due to something unrelated (smashed oil pickup).

if you need a crank pulley tool let me know, I've got one. Its supposedly for a GSR, but I can't imagine they have a different crank pulley bolt on the ITR

Michael Westerfield · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2007 2:00 pm

Matt McGrain wrote:

BriceJohnson wrote:

Michael Westerfield wrote:

Being that the oil pressure sensor doesn't go off for the light on the dash til <2psi or something like that I would try not to drive it much til you know for sure.

this would explain why my poor abused integra had a CEL, but Matt's hopefully healthier integra is only manifesting intermittent VTEC engagement without a CEL. I would definitely take it easy on the car until you get it resolved, as your engine is significantly more expensive than mine was.

Yeah it's definately staying parked even though I raced on it with no vtec in Sanford. :roll:

Dumb thing #5456943796 that I've done...

Anyhow, I may just go ahead and order up all the parts I need for the t-belt change plus the oil pump.

That's crazy that the oil pressure can be so minimal without throwing a code/CEL.

It's that low b/c at idle most motors only make in the 10-15 psi range (once warm). They don't want the light to go off when your idling, thus the low setting.

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2007 4:40 pm

I ran VIR for two days straight oil starving in 17 & 17a at a minimum, probably most right handers, and I never saw the oil light all day until the engine grenaded

- AB

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2007 7:08 pm

Hey Matt, when we talked at Sanford you said VTEC was still engaging. If this is no longer the case, *and* you're not getting a light, a couple possibilities exist.

1. VTEC solenoid went caput. This one is possible but doesn't explain the noise.

2. Blocked oil passage? Dirty oil filter? Something that is preventing the car from making good oil pressure. Again, doesn't explain the noise.

Which leaves us with the oil pump.

Now that said, I had a GS-R for a lot of years that I put 50+ track weekends on, and I never had any oil pump problems, not one. So, don't discount the possibility that it's two separate problems. You're at the mileage where, with my old car, stuff started to fail on me.

Does the sound change when you put the clutch in? If so, look at the throwout or the release bearing, assuming the clutch is original (this is the mileage at which mine finally went). That sound, going on memory here, sounded to my ear like a "transmission sound." I'd have to put the stethoscope on it to tell.

Replacing the oil pump isn't a bad idea though, and if you think that might be suspect, go ahead and do it. B18C5 shortblocks aren't cheap or easy to come by these days, so better safe than sorry.

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2007 11:10 pm

Karl Shultz wrote:

Does the sound change when you put the clutch in? If so, look at the throwout or the release bearing, assuming the clutch is original (this is the mileage at which mine finally went). That sound, going on memory here, sounded to my ear like a "transmission sound." I'd have to put the stethoscope on it to tell.

Replacing the oil pump isn't a bad idea though, and if you think that might be suspect, go ahead and do it. B18C5 shortblocks aren't cheap or easy to come by these days, so better safe than sorry.

It's not transmission or clutch related. It's true the clutches are prone to go out on these cars (namely the springs on the disk). I've had those problems and they're not fun.

I'm overdue to replace the timing belt with a 10 year old car that gets daily driven and revs in vtec every morning on the way to work multiple times as soon as the engine temperature is above 1/4. :lol:

The plan is to just get the t-belt knocked out along with the oil pump (only $90 more) and cross my fingers that the outcome will be favorable. I've never done anything as extensive as a timing belt replacement, so I'll start my studying tomorrow for the big project.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Sat May 26, 2007 9:57 am

Matt McGrain wrote:

The plan is to just get the t-belt knocked out along with the oil pump (only $90 more) and cross my fingers that the outcome will be favorable. I've never done anything as extensive as a timing belt replacement, so I'll start my studying tomorrow for the big project.

Dont ignore the VTEC solenoid. That very well could be your problem.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Sat May 26, 2007 10:10 am

Ryan Holton wrote:

Matt McGrain wrote:

The plan is to just get the t-belt knocked out along with the oil pump (only $90 more) and cross my fingers that the outcome will be favorable. I've never done anything as extensive as a timing belt replacement, so I'll start my studying tomorrow for the big project.

Dont ignore the VTEC solenoid. That very well could be your problem.

Why would the VTEC solenoid cause a ticking sound at idle and as speed increases but before VTEC was supposed to kick in?

I'm not saying it can't, but I am curious if it can and if so, how...

--Donnie

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Sat May 26, 2007 10:12 am

Donnie Barnes wrote:

Ryan Holton wrote:

Matt McGrain wrote:

The plan is to just get the t-belt knocked out along with the oil pump (only $90 more) and cross my fingers that the outcome will be favorable. I've never done anything as extensive as a timing belt replacement, so I'll start my studying tomorrow for the big project.

Dont ignore the VTEC solenoid. That very well could be your problem.

Why would the VTEC solenoid cause a ticking sound at idle and as speed increases but before VTEC was supposed to kick in?

I'm not saying it can't, but I am curious if it can and if so, how...

--Donnie

Ticking could be lifters?

The VTEC solenoid is in the area of the cam, so if it was totally goobered up the tick could be the cam hitting the solenoid.

Im just saying that if the VTEC isnt engaging, check the moving part that engages the VTEC.

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

here's where I downloaded the service manual from before, it will probably help out:

http://www.hondahookup.com/manuals/

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