Advice on Track Tires - Non R-compound Only - Full Tread

Steve Coleman · **Joined:** Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:50 pm **Posts:** 188

Advice on Track Tires - Non R-compound Only - Full Tread w/ Major Abuse

Can anyone offer personal experience with running full, or say 3/4 full, tread depth tires on track using them as hard as possible... FWIW this would be on a stock suspension... and a Miata.

Specifically have you been able to run any that will hold up without chunking or over heating and failing a belt? Note that everything else, such as stickieness, etc. is of secondary concern.

Examples of various ones I'm interested in (particullarly cheap ones):

All either 195 or 205 /50-15s, if your experience is with a different size but the same model, that's fine.

Kumho ECSTA 711 (particularly interested in these)
Kumho ECSTA SPT
Kumho ECSTA MX
Fuzion ZRi
Sumitomo HTR Z
BFGoodrich g-Force Sport
Dunlop Direzza DZ101
Dunlop SP Sport FM901
Yokohama AVS ES100

Anyone tried Nitto NT 450s?

Any info would be appreciated.

TIA,

Steve

PS: I hear tell that one of my students at RR waxed some ah ya'lls fannys in the TT Sun..... ;)

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:14 pm

The Kuhmo MX is EXCELLENT with heat.

The Sumitomo HTR Z didnt falter even under the abuse that Randy Melton dished out to them for two track weekends.

I would look at the Falken Azenis RT615, on a light car, they shouldnt get greasy in a 20-30 min session.

Ashraf Farrag · **Posted:** Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:43 pm

Hello Steve (was good to meet you down at RRR),

I am on my second set of ECSTA 711's as street tires in 205/50/15. They are grippy things for the price. I ran them one day on VIR-South when I flat-spotted or threw out of balance my 195/60/14 Falken Azenis (RT-215) - I can't remember which it was that event but I remember going home and switching back to my street tires for day #2.

My instructor's observation at the time was something like this:
"Gee, these street tires are gripping about as good as the tires you ran the previous day!"

I can't remember the weather but I think it was fairly similar on both days (this was VIR-S two years ago if anyone can remember, I think it was maybe drizzling the second day).

I don't recall any chunking or overheating and I don't recall babying them. If I had another set of wheels, I think I'd try the widest ECSTA 711 I could shoehorn onto a 15x7 wheel as a really cheap but grippy track tire. Note, they are rated as summer-only tires but I have actually driven them in the snow with success and they do fine in the rain. I think I am getting about 1 year of street driving on them - maybe 12-15,000 miles.

The MX and ECSTA 712 are a "step up" in Kumho's line and should be grippier (but cost more).

What's your angle in wanting to run one of the tires on that list? Looking for rain tires?

Best regards,
--Ashraf

steve remchak · **Posted:** Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:11 pm

Falken 451's, great rain tire. don't seem to get greasy on track (3K#car)
probably don't have the dry grip of an Azeni. but very predictable anyway. better hurry they are being dropped.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:18 pm

Tires, especially full tread tires, chunk from heat at the outer edges. The key is to be careful in relatively long corners and do NOT crank in "extra" steering angle if the car starts to understeer. Your ears can be your tire's friend. If they squeal it might be OK. If they howl, etc. there is a reason.

Also, start gently to let the edges wear in some rather than hitting them as hard as possible during the first session. I managed to keep a brand new set of GY's on my 2001 Mustang from chunking at VIR south. The tires looked terrible compared to new BUT they did NOT chunk. A GY tire engineer had me run the normal OEM tire pressures rather than pumping them up like I would have expected. With a Miata I would expect the tires to be less subject to chunking than my Mustang tires were. The hard part for you is that you need to be fast in the corners anyway to keep from being run over by Mustangs on the straights. :lol:

With the Mustang I could take it a little easy in the corners and still have plenty of speed by the next corner. Good thing Carbotech Panther pads were available in early 2002. I USED them!!!

Wes Eargle · **Joined:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am **Posts:** 3683

steve remchak wrote:

Falken 451's, great rain tire. don't seem to get greasy on track (3K#car)
probably don't have the dry grip of an Azeni. but very predictable anyway. better hurry they are being dropped.

Falken doesn't offer those in 15s. 16s and up only.

Matthew Fortner · **Joined:** Sun Mar 21, 2004 12:21 am **Posts:** 384

I took Mark Cooper's reccomendation and got some Toyo T1-Rs from him. They seemed to have held up well with 4 1/2 hours of Rockingham. Very easy to drive on. My 712s leave much to be desired. Fine on the street, but they seem to have lost more grip as they have worn. Heat cycled out?

Brad Mackey · **Posted:** Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:31 am

Hi Steve
I ran a set of 205-15 Ecsta MX's for most of the 2004 season, which was 4 track events and a few autocross events. Started brand new, full tread, at Roebling, drove the hell out of them. Had a lot of "feathering" on the outside, but they didn't *chunk*.

I liked 'em because they had plenty of grip and released predictably, especially when rotating the car or drifting through a sweeper.

They wore out fairly quickly, as I recall, but Roebling and Rockin'ham will do that, anyway. Fairly cheap, too!

I will probably get a 14" set of 195's for rain.

Might be perfect for your style

Stephen Westerfield · **Posted:** Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:26 am

I don't have any track experience with any of these, but I can help you rule one out. I have daily driven on both the 711's and the Dunlop FM901's. The Dunlop's are absolute crap. My wifes Prelude came with a brand new set of them on the car and after 4 weeks I am contemplating getting rid of them as they are horrid in the wet and dry performance is questionable. The 711's on the other hand I have been running on my Integra for over 2 years now and they have been great.

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:21 am

We have the Kumho ECSTA 711s on all three of our cars for street use. Good in the wet, good price too.

I ran a full tread set of Sumitomo HTR ZIIs at VIR-GE this past weekend. Damn fine grip considering I paid $80 for a set of four 225/45/17s.

The Dunlop SP Sport FM901 could be the worst Z-rated tire EVAR. I had a set and they sucked the big one. I wouldn't have another set if they were given to me for free.

If you have the coin, the new Falken Azenis RT-615 is the better non-R compound choice IMO.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Steve Coleman wrote:

Advice on Track Tires - Non R-compound Only - Full Tread w/ Major Abuse

Can anyone offer personal experience with running full, or say 3/4 full, tread depth tires on track using them as hard as possible... FWIW this would be on a stock suspension... and a Miata.

Specifically have you been able to run any that will hold up without chunking or over heating and failing a belt? Note that everything else, such as stickieness, etc. is of secondary concern.

Examples of various ones I'm interested in (particullarly cheap ones):

All either 195 or 205 /50-15s, if your experience is with a different size but the same model, that's fine.

Kumho ECSTA 711 (particularly interested in these)
Kumho ECSTA SPT
Kumho ECSTA MX
Fuzion ZRi
Sumitomo HTR Z
BFGoodrich g-Force Sport
Dunlop Direzza DZ101
Dunlop SP Sport FM901
Yokohama AVS ES100

Anyone tried Nitto NT 450s?

Any info would be appreciated.

TIA,

Steve

PS: I hear tell that one of my students at RR waxed some ah ya'lls fannys in the TT Sun.....

Hi Steve -

I'm going to break from the trend of recommending tires here for a moment to remind everyone about something -- getting an opinion about tire wear from anyone is TOTALLY dependent on driving style and speed.

Personally I have seen double the tire wear from just a few-seconds-per-lap improvement in speed.

All I'm saying is that driver "A" could use any of the tires listed, turn respectable lap times, get several weekends out of them, and never blister, cord, or damage a belt. Driver "B" could probably blister, overheat, cord, and break belts, and turn faster lap times.

Steve, are you driver "A", driver "B", or somewhere in between? You did say "Major Abuse" so I assume you're B and you need to be really careful selecting tires. I know most of the people who have responded to this thread, and while I haven't been on track with them in a while, I doubt Ryan, Vincent, or Brad would fall into "Heavy Abuse" category.

Just wanted to point out that driving style plays a huge role in tire wear and durability.

Steve Coleman · **Joined:** Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:50 pm **Posts:** 188

Jeezzz, I don't know where to start in replying. I've gotten more feedback on here than on a couple national forums, make that worthwhile feedback for the most part.

I'll try to respond to most, but I'm keyboard challenged and composition anal so I need to try to keep it short, may not get to all of the replies.

Ryan Holton wrote:

The Kuhmo MX is EXCELLENT with heat.

The Sumitomo HTR Z didnt falter even under the abuse that Randy Melton dished out to them for two track weekends.

I would look at the Falken Azenis RT615, on a light car, they shouldn't get greasy in a 20-30 min session.

Definitely looking at the MXs and the RT615s, may look closer at the HTR Zs.

Ashraf Farrag wrote:

Hello Steve (was good to meet you down at RRR),

Same here, sorry about the 'too close' bit, shouldn't happen again, but if it does don't hesitate to remind me. ;)

Quote:

I am on my second set of ECSTA 711's as street tires in 205/50/15. They are grippy things for the price. I ran them one day on VIR-South when I flat-spotted or threw out of balance my 195/60/14 Falken Azenis (RT-215) - I can't remember which it was that event but I remember going home and switching back to my street tires for day #2.

I don't recall any chunking or overheating and I don't recall babying them. If I had another set of wheels, I think I'd try the widest ECSTA 711 I could shoehorn onto a 15x7 wheel as a really cheap but grippy track tire.

I'd hoped for being able to use the 711s, but so far most of what I'm seeing is not encouraging for longevity from full tread, which is my main concern.

Quote:

What's your angle in wanting to run one of the tires on that list? Looking for rain tires?
Best regards,
--Ashraf

I'm fiscally challenged and need to get as much track time per dollar as possible. Don't care about lap times, stickieness, turn capability, slip angle curve profile, etc.

DickRasmussen wrote:

Tires, especially full tread tires, chunk from heat at the outer edges. The key is to be careful in relatively long corners and do NOT crank in "extra" steering angle if the car starts to understeer. Your ears can be your tire's friend. If they squeal it might be OK. If they howl, etc. there is a reason. :( Also, start gently to let the edges wear in some rather than hitting them as hard as possible during the first session.

Dick, all excellent points, and they are well taken. Even being very aware of all that, my mindset makes it difficult to 'dial it back' so to speak. I've been experimenting with extremely higher pressures to relieve stress on the shoulders and it seems to be working, both with the ES100s I had at The Rock and the Toyos, and whatever the ones were that Brad loaned me, at RR. All of these started out on somewhat less than full tread however, but I think the concept might work to help prevent *some* of the 'feathering'.

Quote:

I managed to keep a brand new set of GY's on my 2001 Mustang from chunking at VIR south. The tires looked terrible compared to new BUT they did NOT chunk. A GY tire engineer had me run the normal OEM tire pressures rather than pumping them up like I would have expected.

Now that's counter intuitive. Hmmm....

Quote:

With a Miata I would expect the tires to be less subject to chunking than my Mustang tires were. The hard part for you is that you need to be fast in the corners anyway to keep from being run over by Mustangs on the straights. :lol:

I can relate to that. ;)

Brad Mackey wrote:

I ran a set of 205-15 Ecsta MX's for most of the 2004 season, which was 4 track events and a few autocross events. Started brand new, full tread, at Roebling, drove the hell out of them. Had a lot of "feathering" on the outside, but they didn't *chunk*.

They wore out fairly quickly, as I recall, but Roebling and Rockin'ham will do that, anyway. Fairly cheap, too!

I'll be taking that into consideration. The MXs are on my short list.

Quote:

Might be perfect for your style :)

We may get to find out. ;)

Vincent Keene wrote:

I ran a full tread set of Sumitomo HTR ZIIs at VIR-GE this past weekend. Damn fine grip considering I paid $80 for a set of four 225/45/17s.

Another vote for HTR Zs. As noted above I guess I need to look closer at them.

Just where did you get those for $80 a set? You sure you didn't mean $80 each...

Quote:

If you have the coin, the new Falken Azenis RT-615 is the better non-R compound choice IMO.

If I go with one of the pricier ones they're a candidate, but I'd prefer to have symmetrical tread, and these are asymmetrical AFAIK.

MikeWhitney wrote:

I'm going to break from the trend of recommending tires here for a moment to remind everyone about something -- getting an opinion about tire wear from anyone is TOTALLY dependent on driving style and speed.

Personally I have seen double the tire wear from just a few-seconds-per-lap improvement in speed.

Good point, and one I'm well aware of.

Quote:

All I'm saying is that driver "A" could use any of the tires listed, turn respectable lap times, get several weekends out of them, and never blister, cord, or damage a belt. Driver "B" could probably blister, overheat, cord, and break belts, and turn faster lap times.

Steve, are you driver "A", driver "B", or somewhere in between? You did say "Major Abuse" so I assume you're B and you need to be really careful selecting tires. I know most of the people who have responded to this thread, and while I haven't been on track with them in a while, I doubt Ryan, Vincent, or Brad would fall into "Heavy Abuse" category.

Just wanted to point out that driving style plays a huge role in tire wear and durability.

Also good points, and I try to take another's experience with a given tire vs their 'abuse' quotient into account, which isn't always easy to do since I'm a new guy on the block.

I've tried to make it very clear as to the givens for my query, but not everyone reads the usually too verbose posts of mine. ;)

As for my category.... probably closer to a "C" ;) so you can see why I got questions.

Thanks to all who responded, and if I didn't reply directly to your input rest assured it was read and taken into account.

Steve

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:54 am

Steve Coleman wrote:

Vincent Keene wrote:

I ran a full tread set of Sumitomo HTR ZIIs at VIR-GE this past weekend. Damn fine grip considering I paid $80 for a set of four 225/45/17s.

Another vote for HTR Zs. As noted above I guess I need to look closer at them.

Just where did you get those for $80 a set? You sure you didn't mean $80 each...

I meant $80 for all four. My local tire guy (in Wilson) deals in European used tires. He gets them a truck load at a time. He has an entire warehouse full of tires in many name brands and sizes. Unfortunately the pickin's are slim in 15" sizes though. He has tons in 16's, 17's and 18's. I had to hunt for about an hour to get my four tires that matched, but each was 90% new. It was worth the trouble.

Steve Coleman wrote:

Vincent Keene wrote:

f you have the coin, the new Falken Azenis RT-615 is the better non-R compound choice IMO.

If I go with one of the pricier ones they're a candidate, but I'd prefer to have symmetrical tread, and these are asymmetrical AFAIK

No offense, but IMO that asymmetrical business is crap. Many will tell you they have flipped these tires and they feel the same either way. I just got luckily and got a set that were 99% new off Ebay for a steal. $305 including shipping for a set of RT-615s in the 225/45/17 size. That's less than half the price of a brand new set.

Steve Coleman · **Joined:** Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:50 pm **Posts:** 188

Vincent Keene wrote:

I meant $80 for all four. My local tire guy (in Wilson) deals in European used tires. He gets them a truck load at a time. He has an entire warehouse full of tires in many name brands and sizes. Unfortunately the pickin's are slim in 15" sizes though. He has tons in 16's, 17's and 18's. I had to hunt for about an hour to get my four tires that matched, but each was 90% new. It was worth the trouble.

Sounds like a good contact to have... not surprised by the lack of 15s.

Vincent Keene wrote:

Steve Coleman wrote:

Vincent Keene wrote:

f you have the coin, the new Falken Azenis RT-615 is the better non-R compound choice IMO.

If I go with one of the pricier ones they're a candidate, but I'd prefer to have symmetrical tread, and these are asymmetrical AFAIK

No offense, but IMO that asymmetrical business is crap. Many will tell you they have flipped these tires and they feel the same either way.

So you're saying that you, and others you know, don't consider 'flipping' to be an issue with asymmetrical tires?

I wouldn't necessarily disagree on that, except perhaps in cases with extreme differences in tread blocks at or near the shoulder. In any case it wouldn't keep me from flipping if it really needed to be done, however knowing that others had done it without issues is always nice.

Quote:

I just got luckily and got a set that were 99% new off Ebay for a steal. $305 including shipping for a set of RT-615s in the 225/45/17 size. That's less than half the price of a brand new set.

Hadn't thought about eBay.... just checked for 15s and the only one is same or more than Vulcan. I guess I ought to check for some of the other choices on there as well.

Thanks for the good feedback.

Steve

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:07 pm

Steve Coleman wrote:

Vincent Keene wrote:

Steve Coleman wrote:

Vincent Keene wrote:

f you have the coin, the new Falken Azenis RT-615 is the better non-R compound choice IMO.

If I go with one of the pricier ones they're a candidate, but I'd prefer to have symmetrical tread, and these are asymmetrical AFAIK

No offense, but IMO that asymmetrical business is crap. Many will tell you they have flipped these tires and they feel the same either way.

So you're saying that you, and others you know, don't consider 'flipping' to be an issue with asymmetrical tires?

I wouldn't necessarily disagree on that, except perhaps in cases with extreme differences in tread blocks at or near the shoulder. In any case it wouldn't keep me from flipping if it really needed to be done, however knowing that others had done it without issues is always nice.

On the older RT-215s (asymmetrical as well) I can tell you that I, and many others, have flipped them with no issues at all. I assume the new 615s would be similar.

Steve Coleman wrote:

Quote:

I just got luckily and got a set that were 99% new off Ebay for a steal. $305 including shipping for a set of RT-615s in the 225/45/17 size. That's less than half the price of a brand new set.

Hadn't thought about eBay.... just checked for 15s and the only one is same or more than Vulcan. I guess I ought to check for some of the other choices on there as well.

Used the "Save Search" function on Ebay. I received an e-mail from Ebay everyday for 2 months before I found the tires in the size and price I was looking for.

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