THSCC Forums

Looking here: http://www.odr-scca.org/DIY-classing.htm
It looks like I can get out of street mod and into street prepared with just the installation of my back seat. But I heard I need to have my headliner as well. I have a backing I can recover. Do I need to bother with it?

Really, removing a 15 pound cushion is worth about a 20% reduction in course time?
Most other cars must have a huge freaking backseat attached to a drag brake.

You ran in D Mod, not Street Mod at the last event. Why was that?

Also, it's not about whether a certain rule is "fair" or not, or what something does or doesn't do to your performance. If you want to participate in a certain class, you have to be legal for it. There is no substitute. Period. Many people, myself included, have spend a decent amount of money making a car legal for it's particular class and additionally resent cheating.

Are you worried about PAX or about your raw time or getting in-class competition?

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

At my first event(This was my second ever) I was put in DM by the guys that were setting up course work. So I stayed there for this event. I am a novice, what can I say? Novice means I am new at this.
I built up a car for the GrassrRoots challenge. It was a free junker built for less than $1500. Because the challenge limit was $2004(At the time of the event, which I DID NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO ATTEND, there was less than $1000 in the car) Some of the stuff I did, like strip the car, have put it into a class that makes it very uncompetitive. While it is not a big deal, I do find it amusing that taking the foam cushion out of my car, based on( http://www.odr-scca.org/DIY-classing.htm)puts me in class with cars that have to be trailered and have many thousands of dollars in them. Believe me, if I made lots of money I would be more than happy to try and build it to the level where it would compete, however I lack that kind of money.
So,... Looking at the DIY ruleset, it appears that putting that foam cushion(That matches the front seats as IT IS the backseat for the car) back in, will put it in a prepared class, probably F prepared.
If that is a problem then I have no problem with the personal satisfaction of owning a 25 year old car, I built up myself, that will beat cars costing many thousands more, with modern suspensions and twice the displacement.

So, your car has a nice lightweight foam seat? What about a car that has a 70lb rear seat. That's not an insignificant weight savings. If you can remove your seat, then they should also be able to remove theirs. Unless of you course, you think the rules should say: cars x,y and z can remove their seats, but cars t, and u, cannot.

It sounds like you should just enjoy driving your car and forget where the rules put you. With an older car it's usually fairly difficult to meet the rules anyway, without causing a lot of headache for yourself.

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In need of car.

I'm not trying to bitch at you; however, the ruleset is concrete. There's no reason to brice this up -- it is at it is. My recommendation is to have fun and not worry about PAX.

PAX is based on well-seasoned drivers that win national autocrosses with cars perfected to a "T". My CSP Miata with stock seats, rollbar and passenger airbag with two year old Azenis isn't competitive, but this isn't what it's (from what the crazy canucks say) aboot. Have fun, and then go from there. Don't try and rationalize the lack of preparedness for your class, you'll only frustrate yourself.

edit: look at the differences between my amateur times in my bitchass car, and then look at what Donnie Barnes did in a nationally competitive CSP car. Then say Damn. That's what PAX really means, it is the setup.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

I am trying not to stress on it to much but I am getting killed. Even in NOV* where PAX bumped me 21 places. But, looking at the rules**, the backseat(In my attic) anad the headliner(In the shed) would put me in a class with cars from the same era with the same kinds of mods. The Caddy was little slower than me at this event but at the last Sanford event, where he was running more rubber, he whupped me. That is all I want, to class my car so that I compete, not win outright, just fair.

*I really don't stress over getting beat in DM, even a moron could see that there is a difference between the Lotus or Caterham and my junker.


**Believe me, if I had known ahead of time how oddly the rules were written, this never would have come up. i would have signed up to my first event in FP and no one have said a word (Except, maybe, "that new guy is pretty quick considering the heap he brought" ) Remember, my first event, I could not even find the exit of the airport, took me three tries.

Hint: Anyone who wants to complain about PAX, please consider what your PAX is based on. If your car isn't prepped to within 75% of the basis for your pax, you are way out of your league in expecting to do well in a PAX class for which you are not prepped. (Note that this isn't directed at you Chuck, I just hoped to clarify this "philosophy")

Got an SM car? Here's who helped define your PAX at the 2005 National Champs:



D Modified? I can't find a pic of John Ames' 74 Europa, but I'm sure it has 13xInfinity wheels and the stickiest rubber man can buy.

Now if you're able to stick with stock class rules, it's really, really easy to have a car prepped to 75% of the nationals winning car. You just buy it and show up on race tires.

So it's not "how much is this back seat really worth". It's "how much is this back seat and the $25k in development that I have not and will not do to be competitive FOR MY PAX worth?"

The idiotic rules that you see are all afterthoughts. SM for example is a class for people that want to do forced induction and design and fabricate their own suspension. The back seat allowance is an afterthought. The longer you're around this sport, the more the SCCA rules in _general_ make a lot of sense.

There is a reason that so many really talented drivers in this club drive stock cars. Because it's the cheapest way to be PAX competitive.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

The light seat is not the point, altho it is amusing that it classes it with cars than never had a back seat and "may not be driven on a public road". Like I said a couple of times I have no problem putting it back in, I just want to know if this is the tipping point to reclass it where it will be even a little competitive with other cars that were from the same era, set up in a similar fashion.
I enjoy driving my car anyway. I thought the rules were to keep it fair. Getting dropped 21 places even tho your car is quicker because, " PAX is based on well-seasoned drivers that win national autocrosses with cars perfected to a "T". " does not strike me as fair. If the car was classed in FP, then it would have been placed in NOV in a more appropriate spot, somewhere in the top ten(Somewhere near the real placement). My car has been shamed, now it is leaking oil all over the garage floor. You all owe me oil dry. I fought hard for that 28th place, now I gotta spend my day off doing main seals.

Believe me, if I could afford to buy a "stock car" I would. Well, that is not really true. I love my little Scirocco. I stripped it to a shell and put it back together, I could not disown it.
If I had the bread, I would put a modern 1.8T with megasquirt injection, mid/rear mounted, rear drive, with independent A-arms. Raise the front susp. points so I could drop the car some more and keep a decent A-arm angle, roll and pull the fenders and drop some 10X13 slicks in there. All just to keep class and prove a point. Reality steps in and says I better find enough money to replace the main seals and put a head gasket on it or the "S" may puke all over the track next time.

Simply because you don't choose to take your car to the furthest level possible shouldn't be a speedbump for those that do. And that is what the numbers are based on. This ain't franks and beans, franks and beans motorsports.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Just out of curiosity:
If I said I wanted to remove the seat and go to DM from FP would all the repsonses be the same?

Yes. Have the rules changed? Or have you consulted the grey fairy in the world of black and white? Clearly you have access to a rulebook, why not use it to answer your questions instead of this forum? You could ask if you could remove the tie-downs from a Miata and if that would be legal for a stock class and the answer would be the same. No.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Fair enough. I choose to take my car to the furthest level. Give me 12K$. I will return the unused balance to you when the project is completed.


P.S. " thogh-5 sp" Uhoh: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warrio ... marian.htm

Let's put it this way: you're scheduled for an armwrestling contest with Mr. T. You're allowed to train for up to a year, but can only go up to using an 80lb dumbbell. Yet you use a 20lber. You lose.

Should you whine?

PS, I appreciate that little nugget of spelling appreciation, Binky. I did earn my fair share of gold stars over twenty years ago, and I'm still mighty proud of them. The fact that you are concentrating on that instead of the larger point is quite telling.


Brice, move over, there's a new sheriff in town.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Mostly because I expected you guys to be freindly and helpful, not a bunch of quasi-anonymous douchebags. The myth exposed, from the FAQ: "as well as enjoying each other's company"

I don't really have access the the bigbad SCCA rulebook. It is in Adobe and my very old laptop does not like Adobe all that much. The DIY is a web page. I just wanted to confirm what it appeared to say. Alas, the monkees throw, or is it thro? poo when threatened. So I will just leave the car where she is, and be amazed that a car such as it is faster than cars costing twenty times more. While the owner of that car revels in his corrected "time" I picked the Red Lantern as my logo for a reason.