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 Post subject: Books or Web Howtos on Shock Rebuilding?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:31 pm 
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Queen of the Guinea Hens
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I could have sworn there was at least one book out there on the ins and outs of rebuilding shocks, but I've done Amazon and Google searches and can't seem to find anything. It's entirely possible I'm using bad search terms, but I figured I'd give up for a while and ask here.

Anyone know of anything? If there is appropriate reading material on the topic, I'm considering getting a shock dyno and having an employee of mine learn how to rebuild and revalve Konis. It's entirely possible I'd consider getting into the business of doing it, at least for local type folks and such.

Any pointers are welcome.


--Donnie


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 Post subject: Re: Books or Web How tos on Shock Rebuilding?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:53 pm 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
I could have sworn there was at least one book out there on the ins and outs of rebuilding shocks, but I've done Amazon and Google searches and can't seem to find anything. It's entirely possible I'm using bad search terms, but I figured I'd give up for a while and ask here.

Anyone know of anything? If there is appropriate reading material on the topic, I'm considering getting a shock dyno and having an employee of mine learn how to rebuild and revalve Konis. It's entirely possible I'd consider getting into the business of doing it, at least for local type folks and such.

Any pointers are welcome.


--Donnie
The best description I am aware of regarding proper racing damper valve technology is contained in Inside Racing Technology. While it does not detail how to actually rebuild a shock, it does give the reader a better understanding of how valves and shim stacks work. Just a word of warning, you probably won't want to touch a Koni Sport again after reading it! It is pretty harsh on twin tube dampers. You are welcome to borrow my copy of that book if you would like.

QA-1 makes affordable and owner rebuildable / revalvable twin tube dampers. http://www.naake.com/Table.PDF is a PDF table of the valve shim stack specifications for particular damping characteristics. http://www.naake.com/Qa1rebuild.html is a link to step-by-step instructions on how to rebuild these units. While there will obviously be some specifics that are different for Konis, these should give you an idea of what is involved. FWIW, if QA-1 made an owner rebuildable and revalvable strut, I would have ordered them yesterday. Thus far, they are only shocks.

My apologies if this is all too elementary for what you need. I have been interested in this subject for some time and these are just a couple of the better resources. Sorry, I have nothing Koni specific, but I am sure that will come as no suprise to more than a couple of people.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:23 pm 
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Donnie,

Probably not what you are looking for but interesting anyway.

http://www.penskeshocks.com/technica.htm

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:34 pm 
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Yeah, it's more the ins and outs of how to safely tear a shock down (there's got to be a good way to take the gas pressure off) and how to put one back together. I see various tools listed for doing the high pressure charging, but you need to know what to charge them *with*. You know, important stuff like that. :)

Penske appears to have a "shock service manual" you can get for their stuff, but I can't find anything similar for Koni. I need to call Lee Grimes at Koni again tomorrow anyway, so perhaps I'll ask him.

As an FYI, this is all brought about by the fact that I've *wanted* to do this in the past but never found a good enough reason. Finding a blown shock right before Nationals last year *should* have been my wakeup call, but it wasn't. Finding now that I may have another one only to find out Koni is currently over EIGHT WEEKS out on service requests might be the last straw.


--Donnie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:17 pm 
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Koni's website mentions specifically that only two other shops are Koni certified to do the revalving. One of which doesn't know up from down evidently. Why this is is interesting -- is it because they want to remain exclusive or because educating the "off site" techs is prohibitively expensive.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:46 pm 
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Actually, *both* other shops suck. ProParts sucks in more ways than I can count, but I've documented that already.

Truechoice also sucks. They put our rear shocks back together *wrong* and as such, they were basically bottoming out half way through their travel. This cost Eric and I both any shot at a decent Pro Finale finish last year. Fortunately the Koni trailer was there and stayed extra hours to rebuild them properly for Nationals (then the rain killed us).

The shocks would have been obviously screwed if you put them on a dyno to test them at all, so they obviously didn't do that. :(


--Donnie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:56 pm 
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Sounds like a great third option then. I have a set of shocks that'll need revalving in the next year, and if you bring this to fruition, you've got a local customer unless they get done at Nationals.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:02 am 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
Yeah, it's more the ins and outs of how to safely tear a shock down (there's got to be a good way to take the gas pressure off) and how to put one back together. I see various tools listed for doing the high pressure charging, but you need to know what to charge them *with*.
If you are talking Koni Sports, if I am not mistaken, there are two types - hydraulic and gas charged. Both are twin-tube design, but the hydraulic needs no gas charge and the rebuild process should be similar to the process detailed in the link I gave for QA-1 rebuilds. While I am not sure what design Koni uses, there are generally two sub-types of twin-tube gas shocks - bag and emulsion. In emulsion, gas is forced directly into the damper outer chamber in order to reduce the likelihood of fluid cavitation through incrased pressure. Same theory as the radiator cap on the cooling system in your car. In bag shocks, the gas is contained in a sealed bag at a set pressure. The bag resides at the top of the outer chamber. Koni and most other twin-tube gas shock manufacturers that I have been able to find information on use nitrogen as the gas of choice. Koni specifies 4-8 bar of nitorgen pressure. If they are gas bag shocks, you won't need to do anything other than inspect the bag, and reinsert it. If they are emulsion, looking at Koni cutaways, I see no port for gas introduction, so I cannot even speculate what would need to be done. On monotubes, the bottom of the damper is equipped with a port in order to pressurize the are below the floating piston. Penske's are of this design, so if you read the link given for those, as I understand it, the rebuild process is different than what you will encounter with any twin-tube damper.

If you have an old and busted Koni gas damper, you might want to take it apart just to see. Of course, a conclusion based on one damper is not to be considered reliable, but it might give you some more information. On either twin-tube design, all you need to do is drill a small hole in the outer body to drain the oil. If gas pressure is still present, it will squirt out and make a mess, but it isn't dangerous. Interestingly, the directions Koni gives for disassembly of factory sealed dampers for the fitment of a Koni insert is the proper method for disassembly of a Koni as well as long as you are not looking to put it back together.

Donnie Barnes wrote:
As an FYI, this is all brought about by the fact that I've *wanted* to do this in the past but never found a good enough reason. Finding a blown shock right before Nationals last year *should* have been my wakeup call, but it wasn't. Finding now that I may have another one only to find out Koni is currently over EIGHT WEEKS out on service requests might be the last straw.


--Donnie
Which, with all due respect, begs the question of why invest more time and money in Konis if they are so problematic? I understand it from a business point-of-view: the supply is great, the demand is strong and competition, in your experience, is poor. But for your own use, why not upgrade to better dampers? Far be it from me to tell you not to do this, I obviously have an interest in the subject and would relish the opportunity to see shock rebuilding and dynoing in person, but it strikes me as perhaps the most difficult way to solve the problem you are having.

Also, I forgot to mention, the Inside Racing Technology book I recommended before is not only about shocks. I think about 40 pages are on dampers. I don't want you to think that the whole book is dedicated to the subject. The rest of the book is worth reading, just not pertinent to your current project.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:08 am 
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Back in my DSM hayday, Dennis Grant delved into this a bit and here is a synopsis:

Koni: Virtually no way to rebuild yourself

Bilstein: The way he made it out a blind man could do it no problem.

DG's web site is www.farnorthracing.com he might be able to provide some insight.

Be forewarned, he can be kinda odd.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:19 am 
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Just talked to Lee Grimes (after reading everything here) at Koni again.

There is no service manual available for anything from Koni except the 28 series. That's the only series they feel is in any way user serviceable. My experience with 28 series shocks is that you *need* that because apparently they need to be fixed far too regularly. :(

Everything else is considered too complex and likely needs specialty tools, that from the sound of it you can't even buy...they're just things that Koni has made and gives to their authorized resellers.

So why stay with Koni? Well, the biggest reason is strut inserts...AFAIK, they're the only company that makes high performance dampers in that form. So, you can spend $600 for a set of those and a few hours putting them in (and I suppose you should also consider the cost of the struts you are "destroying" in the process, assuming you're not just replacing already bad shocks, which may make it a $1000 proposition), -or- you can go spend $6k+ getting a custom strut built out of a Penske or higher end Koni or whatever. Yep, that's the cost difference. If there's a cheaper option that is worth a damned, I'd like to know.

We do know that often an OTS Koni single will perform *really* well. We know that in some cases, a revalved Koni single will be even better. But we also have the obvious problem...two of the three certified places suck, and the one that doesn't suck is always *at least* a month out, and at "bad" times is two months out.

As for my current situation, the shocks on my Miata are Koni monotubes (30 series, though, not 28 series) that have several national championships with that valving. I do not relish the thought of trying to have them recreated *properly* with some other shock. But I'm starting to think that this situation may be the *perfect* learning opportunity...buy a set of Penske's and a dyno and start playing with them until I can get dyno curves that look like the Konis. Then try on car.

That said, the other thing that Lee said was that pretty much any sub $10k shock dyno isn't worth having. He said you do at least need a multi-speed dyno to get the proper results that you really want to see. He said they pretty much only use Roehrig dynos and currently have a $125k on order for their shop. Ouch. Scary stuff. Of course, looking now I see on Roehrig's site that the 2VS is variable speed and "only" $8k. Apparently those are all upgradeable to higher horsepower and such should the need arise, too. I emailed just to see if perhaps a used one is available that isn't listed, too. Hmmm...

Oh, and just another note. Most often the shock work I want to do is for cars that are going to stay Solo2 stock legal. That makes a *lot* of the aftermarket struts completely out of the question for me since they often do things like lower the car or require aftermarket springs or whatever. :(


--Donnie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:30 am 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
So why stay with Koni? Well, the biggest reason is strut inserts...AFAIK, they're the only company that makes high performance dampers in that form. So, you can spend $600 for a set of those and a few hours putting them in (and I suppose you should also consider the cost of the struts you are "destroying" in the process, assuming you're not just replacing already bad shocks, which may make it a $1000 proposition), -or- you can go spend $6k+ getting a custom strut built out of a Penske or higher end Koni or whatever. Yep, that's the cost difference. If there's a cheaper option that is worth a damned, I'd like to know.
--Donnie
I have no experience with these guys (thus worth a damned is not a certainty), but they are another source of affordable inserts:
http://www.sellisengineering.com/products.html
Seems like they can make almost anything and while they have Konis, they also have other options.
Furthermore, Bilstein has a universal strut insert that they sell. While not adjustable, there are Bilstein take-apart shocks available that might possibly have some parts in common. If nothing else, probably worth calling them. Most likely you will give up adjustability, which is one of the draws of Koni.

I have been searching around a lot recently for good but affordable inserts for my own project. Please let me know if you find anything as I am not overwhelmed with options at this point.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:51 pm 
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More food for thought. Roehrig is in Lexington and they do training on the stuff they sell at their site. Big plus. All units appear to be very upgradeable.

Ohlins USA is in Hendersonville and supposedly they have a shaker and you can rent shaker time. Not sure about cost...I'm sure it ain't cheap. But it is interesting and at least means that if someone were building Ohlins shocks you could likely get whatever parts you needed via UPS ground and have them in a day. I'm pretty sure all the Penske Shocks are based out of Pennsylvania, but they also have an office in Florida.

Just trying to put more good info in this thread so it's all in one place. :)

Thanks for all the input so far!


--Donnie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:57 pm 
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Oh, Ellis Engineering has a 704 phone number, so they must be in the Charlotte area. Interesting. Their website is horrible, but there may be something usable there yet.


--Donnie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:01 pm 
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Oh man, check this out:

http://www.penskeshocks.com/hyraulic.htm

Is it just me, or does this seem to be *just* the ticket for stock class autocross where you're *stuck* with soft springs???


--Donnie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:11 pm 
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Hey Donnie. FYI -- I had my Penske shocks revalved at the Penske shop in Florida. It cost a bloody fortune, but I couln't be happier with them right now. If you need a contact name and number for someone down there, I can send them your way.

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