brake pads/brake fluid NOOB questions

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:42 am

let's pretend i know nothing about pads & fluid. not much of a stretch really. looking at carbotech site i see axxis ultimate and panther plus 1106 as fitting my needs. the 1106's fit driving criteria, and the axxis' on price. autox car, novice track school car, not a daily driver. 97 bmw 328is. and also, as i will need to change fluid, some advice on brands would be appreciated. thanks.

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:47 am

steve remchak wrote:

let's pretend i know nothing about pads & fluid. not much of a stretch really. looking at carbotech site i see axxis ultimate and panther plus 1106 as fitting my needs. the 1106's fit driving criteria, and the axxis' on price. autox car, novice track school car, not a daily driver. 97 bmw 328is. and also, as i will need to change fluid, some advice on brands would be appreciated. thanks.

I'll leave the pads to someone else. The fluid of choice for me is the Ford Heavy Duty. Nice high boiling point, easy to find, cheap and, unlike many others, comes in a nice small size so you neither waste much nor are you tempted to try and save it. Most BMW guys run ATE Super Blue (or the gold equivilant) which is excellent, but, it costs more and only comes in large containers. Fresh fluid is more important thatn brand, IMO.

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:57 am

Call Matt Nicholson at Carbotech and talk about pads.

I swear by Motul. Love it.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:10 am

Steve,

When you talk to Matt be sure to emphasize that the car will be used for both autox and open track. Also tell him how "sticky" you will go with tires for both types of use. It is VERY easy to end up with "too agressive" a pad for autocross. You might be better off having dedicated pads and rotors for each application. Then you have the RIGHT stuff instead of trying to compromise. Matt can explain why if that is what he recommends.

Dick

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

steve remchak wrote:

let's pretend i know nothing about pads & fluid. not much of a stretch really. looking at carbotech site i see axxis ultimate and panther plus 1106 as fitting my needs. the 1106's fit driving criteria, and the axxis' on price. autox car, novice track school car, not a daily driver. 97 bmw 328is. and also, as i will need to change fluid, some advice on brands would be appreciated. thanks.

Frankly, for street, autocross, and novice-level driving schools, I'd recommend sticking with OEM Pagid pads. They really do quite well, even on track at less than 10/10ths and/or in traffic. Kendra used Pagids on her 95 325i in green and yellow groups on track. And they are cheap.

They will wear a little quicker than a dedicated track pad, but heat-fade was only an issue when *I* drove the car at 10/10ths in instructor group. Even then, it took a lot of abuse to get them to fade on that car.

If Adam can't get them, I'd recommend Steve D'G at The Ultimate Garage for Pagids.

Adam Ligon · **Posted:** Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:58 am

Yes I can get the Pagids, $49 and $48 F and R.

I also really like the PBR/Axxis Metal Masters. They are a very good all around pad, that can handle track temps very well. Not to mention they are a bit cheaper than the Pagids, $39 and $29

Now as for fluids, it really depends on your maitanence schedule on flushing the fluid. Ate super lue is a great fluid, but it should be flushed every 3-6 months, min. The Ate Gold is the long interval version of the blue, it is not the same fluid as the blue as many people seem to think, it can go up 1-2yrs between flushes, though I wouldn't recomned that. Castrol LMA is a great fluid for the price as well. Also unless you plan to bleed/flush the brakes every 2 months look at the wet boiling pts, not the dry. After 2 months in your system the fluid is "wet".

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Adam Ligon wrote:

Yes I can get the Pagids, $49 and $48 F and R.

I also really like the PBR/Axxis Metal Masters. They are a very good all around pad, that can handle track temps very well. Not to mention they are a bit cheaper than the Pagids, $39 and $29

Now as for fluids, it really depends on your maitanence schedule on flushing the fluid. Ate super lue is a great fluid, but it should be flushed every 3-6 months, min. The Ate Gold is the long interval version of the blue, it is not the same fluid as the blue as many people seem to think, it can go up 1-2yrs between flushes, though I wouldn't recomned that. Castrol LMA is a great fluid for the price as well. Also unless you plan to bleed/flush the brakes every 2 months look at the wet boiling pts, not the dry. After 2 months in your system the fluid is "wet".

Metalmasters are a decent pad, but in my experience are very aggressive on rotors.

I've been a happy user of ATE Gold (Typ 200) for several years on all my street and track cars

I also thought it was the same as blue until I read your post

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:30 am

Adam Ligon wrote:

Also unless you plan to bleed/flush the brakes every 2 months look at the wet boiling pts, not the dry. After 2 months in your system the fluid is "wet".

Part of the inspection procedure is to have fluid less than 90 days old. I have never heard the two months to wet but did find this from GS610:

Quote:

How fast does brake fluid absorb moisture?

It depends on the fluid and environment. A typical high performance DOT 4 fluid like, Motul, AP, Castrol SRF, Wilwood and ATE SuperBlue, in a high humidity environment will absorb as much as 4.5-5% moisture in as short a period as 2 weeks. In real world testing (several daily driver cars, GS610 absorbed <1% moisture in 3 years. This was measured from the brake fluid in the reservoir where the vehicle's brake system is most likely to contain the greatest contamination of moisture.

and this from Ryder fleet services:

Quote:

Standard brake fluid absorbs water over time. On average, in two years it's saturated: it's collected enough moisture to warrant replacement, otherwise hydraulic system parts - including costly ABS components - may suffer internal rust damage. Also, "wet" brake fluid boils more readily than when it's fresh.

Most telling, is http://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/BrakeFluidComparison.htm
and in particular

Since wet boiling point is 3.5% water (according to the FMVSS), 2 months is probably not truly wet fluid.

However, this is not to say that Adam is wrong. Far from it. While our track procedures say any fluid 90 days or newer is OK, if the data above is right, that fluid is going to have a boiling point lower than the dry one. How much lower? Well, Wes, Scott or some other chemist can figure that out. Adam's rule of thumb, while cautious, does show the truth - that fluid gets wet quickly (it is designed to do so, btw). Me, I'll stick with fresh fluid that is about 90 hours old when I go onto the track.

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:03 pm

Brake fluid temp document. That should clear things up for you... :wink:

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Very good information - thanks for the tech Rich.

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:07 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

Very good information - thanks for the tech Rich.

Damn, you read fast. I posted that link a minute before your post! :wink:

steve remchak · **Posted:** Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:40 pm

yes indeed. thanks.

Mark Vitacco · **Posted:** Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:33 am

For newbe's I would recomend sticking a temp strip on your front
calipers (ARP Racing, Pegasis, etc) and temp indicator paint
on the pad backing plates.

One you record some hard data for yourself, they way you drive, in your
car, on this track or at an autocross, it makes it a lot easer to pick pads & Fluid because you at least have a reasonable estimate of the temp
parameters YOU operate in. And you will see this will change over time.

For example if you are recording temps of 1200 degrees you don't want
to buy a HD pad rated 800 degrees. Of if you never go over 1200
you don't need RACE ONLY pads rated at 1600 costing $150+ a set.

Same is true for brake fluid. It helps to at least know your caliper
temp. Temp strips will get you in the ball park and cost about a buck each. I found recording caliper temps to be an eye opener. Mine
are between 400 and 450 degrees.

Another thing you want to look for is heat soak at other locations
of the braking system. I put a strip on the M/C an on the brake lines that
are near the motor or exhaust system. (How close is that TURBO or Headder from the brake lines or M/C & does it need a shield?) .
That will prevent chaising your tail bleeding the caliper when the problem
is a temp spike somewhere else.

So even if you know nothing else about brakes, armed with this data
you can make some informed decisions based on actual data and
gain a lot of knowedge in a short amount of time.

YOu will KNOW
when you need to get a dedicated track pad when you reach those
temp threasholds or if a AXXIS (Metal Master) or Pagid pad is fine for now

Then it comes down to driver prefrence, feel, ease of modulation, etc, . You are just going to have to try pads and judge what you like yourself from what you can affoard, but at least you will be selecting from pads designed to operatre within your parameters.

Does this make sence?

Ron Spencer · **Posted:** Tue May 03, 2005 2:39 pm

Rich: So the bottom line of the paper is that brakes get hot when you use them? I always wondered.....

For brake pads, I have always recommended buying real performance pads for track use. But, Mike and others have more experience with BMWs so I defer to them.

On brake fluid my view has always been to use standard DOT 3 fluid. I would rather have the pedal go soft then use very high wet boiling point fluid and find the next weak area of the braking system which could be a hose or the o ring on the brake caliper piston. I can drive around a soft pedal (pump it up!) but not around a huge fluid leak like a blown hose or caliper. Just my thinking...

As I have said I have always (well almost always) used regular DOT 3 and have had no problems with it IF, and only if, the fluid is VERY fresh. Means certainly less than 3 months old and any fluid added came from an unopened bottle of fluid. The opened half bottles are for trailer brakes!

Ron

steve remchak · **Posted:** Tue May 03, 2005 8:25 pm

brakes are done, need to road test next. and then its off to sanford. thanks for the advice everyone.

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