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 Post subject: R134a
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:45 pm 
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So what's up with R134a this year? $9 a can?!?!? Seems pretty universal. Many places are out of stock. 30lb cylinders at PepBoys are going for $300.

Anyone know of any places with cheap stock left? I need a few cans. We had to buy 9 cans today for the bus install. If there is still a small leak, refilling that thing is going to hurt.

Anyone know the story behind the jump in prices? I "heard on the internet" that the Tsunami wiped out one of the two major plants or supply lines or something.

Also, if there are any AC experts out there - why won't R-22 work in an auto AC system? Just curious :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:45 am 
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Check Sam's club for bulk stuff.

Not sure why the price went up, R134A used to be dirt cheap.

Scott


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:45 am 
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I'm not sure why the shortage in availability.

If I recall my thermodynamics correctly, the incompatability of different grades of freon between different a/c systems boils down to the Ideal Gas Law: PV=MRT.

The different grades of freon all have different R values. The compressor system in the a/c unit is designed based on the R value of intended use. I don't think you can get lucky enough to find a freon with an R value that will make an existing system more efficient.

This is reaching a ways back, but I think the essence of the idea is correct. By the way, the "R" as in R22 is not the same R in the Ideal Gas Law.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:59 am 
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scottjohnson wrote:
Check Sam's club for bulk stuff.

Not sure why the price went up, R134A used to be dirt cheap.

Scott


Sam's stopped carrying it a month or 2 ago. Maybe they foresaw the supply problems and decided not to risk having an empty shelf with a label? Or just couldn't negotiate the kind of terms that the company is used to.

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 Post subject: Re: R134a
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:07 am 
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MikeWhitney wrote:
So what's up with R134a this year? $9 a can?!?!?


Per the SAE:
Quote:
There is a worldwide shortage of R134a, the non-flammable refrigerant used in almost all original equipment automotive A/C systems. The shortage is caused by limited production and increasing world demand, as countries such as India switch from R12. That switch was made in the U.S. and most other countries from 1991 to 1995. R134a prices have risen from as little as $80 for a 30-lb tank to up to $300 and more. Small cans, containing 12 oz, have more than doubled or tripled in price.


There is more to it than that, but that is good enough for most people not in the industry.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:23 am 
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http://www.freeze12.com/

Anybody try that. The AC on the Miata just crapped out and it's old school enough to be R12. It's gotten good reviews on Miata.net. . .but. . . well it's gotten good reviews on miata.net.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:40 am 
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Kevin Butler wrote:
I'm not sure why the shortage in availability.

If I recall my thermodynamics correctly, the incompatability of different grades of freon between different a/c systems boils down to the Ideal Gas Law: PV=MRT.

The different grades of freon all have different R values. The compressor system in the a/c unit is designed based on the R value of intended use. I don't think you can get lucky enough to find a freon with an R value that will make an existing system more efficient.

This is reaching a ways back, but I think the essence of the idea is correct. By the way, the "R" as in R22 is not the same R in the Ideal Gas Law.


What?????

Pv=nRT.

R is a constant that relates the units of pressure, volume, # of molecules (moles, the "n") and temperature. That's it. One of the more popular R values is 0.0821 L*atm/mol*K

The reason why people swap away from R12 is that it depletes ozone where R134a does not. You flush the system to get rid of that, and some mineral oil which is not R134a compatible either (non-miscible) That's why kits have ester oil which mixes well with the mineral oil already extant and won't funk up the new refrigerant.

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Last edited by Wes Eargle on Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: R134a
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:42 am 
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Rich Anderson wrote:
MikeWhitney wrote:
So what's up with R134a this year? $9 a can?!?!?


Per the SAE:
Quote:
There is a worldwide shortage of R134a, the non-flammable refrigerant used in almost all original equipment automotive A/C systems. The shortage is caused by limited production and increasing world demand, as countries such as India switch from R12. That switch was made in the U.S. and most other countries from 1991 to 1995. R134a prices have risen from as little as $80 for a 30-lb tank to up to $300 and more. Small cans, containing 12 oz, have more than doubled or tripled in price.


There is more to it than that, but that is good enough for most people not in the industry.


Gimme the MORE man!

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V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:44 am 
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David Spratte wrote:
http://www.freeze12.com/

Anybody try that. The AC on the Miata just crapped out and it's old school enough to be R12. It's gotten good reviews on Miata.net. . .but. . . well it's gotten good reviews on miata.net.


I used Envirosafe something-12 which is very similar to Freeze-12 on my last R12 repair job. It worked great. You DO know however that the stuff is a blend of propane and butane, right?

Personally, I wouldn't use it in a track car, but I was OK using it on the street.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:49 am 
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Wes Eargle wrote:
Kevin Butler wrote:
If I recall my thermodynamics correctly, the incompatability of different grades of freon between different a/c systems boils down to the Ideal Gas Law: PV=MRT.


What?????

Pv=nRT.



Calm down, Chem Boy. From

http://www.chemeng.ed.ac.uk/~mbiggs/mjb ... ummary.pdf

Ideal gas (Boyle, 1660; Mariotte, 1676; Charles, 1787; Gay-Lussac, 1802)

A variety of forms may be used

1. Extensive forms

pV = nRT

where R is the universal gas constant, equal to 8.314 J/molK, and

pV = mRT

where R is now the universal gas constant divided by the molecular weight with units of J/kgK (this is sometimes termed the gas constant, which is a only a constant in the sense it does not change for any given particular fluid).

2. Intensive forms

pv = RT

where v is the molar volume, and

p = CRT

where C is the (molar) concentration, and

pv = RT

where v is now the specific volume

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V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1


Last edited by MikeWhitney on Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:50 am 
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MikeWhitney wrote:
David Spratte wrote:
http://www.freeze12.com/

Anybody try that. The AC on the Miata just crapped out and it's old school enough to be R12. It's gotten good reviews on Miata.net. . .but. . . well it's gotten good reviews on miata.net.


I used Envirosafe something-12 which is very similar to Freeze-12 on my last R12 repair job. It worked great. You DO know however that the stuff is a blend of propane and butane, right?

Personally, I wouldn't use it in a track car, but I was OK using it on the street.


I do now.

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I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:57 am 
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Kevin Butler wrote:
I'm not sure why the shortage in availability.

If I recall my thermodynamics correctly, the incompatability of different grades of freon between different a/c systems boils down to the Ideal Gas Law: PV=MRT.

The different grades of freon all have different R values. The compressor system in the a/c unit is designed based on the R value of intended use. I don't think you can get lucky enough to find a freon with an R value that will make an existing system more efficient.

This is reaching a ways back, but I think the essence of the idea is correct. By the way, the "R" as in R22 is not the same R in the Ideal Gas Law.


Kevin, I don't believe that gas incompatibility has anything at all to do with the ideal gas law. It's the actual UNideal properties of gases that allow AC to work at all - the fact that they will condense to a liquid. I'd bet that incompatibility is due to 3 things, mostly related to the liquid and the transformation of that gas into a liquid: (1) the differing temp/pressure point of the liquidus and the resulting high/low side pressures in the system (R22 goes a LOT higher than 134), (2) Different expansion valves needed depending on the temp/pressure of a particular liquid, and the liquid's properties (viscosity?), and (3) The types of oils used - I believe the refrigerant needs to actually be anle to dissolve oil INTO it, so oil solubility in the compressed gas is a factor.

Just a guess. I'm not a thermodynamicist OR a chemist, so what do I know?

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 Post subject: Re: R134a
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:08 am 
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MikeWhitney wrote:
Rich Anderson wrote:
MikeWhitney wrote:
So what's up with R134a this year? $9 a can?!?!?


Per the SAE:
Quote:
There is a worldwide shortage of R134a, the non-flammable refrigerant used in almost all original equipment automotive A/C systems. The shortage is caused by limited production and increasing world demand, as countries such as India switch from R12. That switch was made in the U.S. and most other countries from 1991 to 1995. R134a prices have risen from as little as $80 for a 30-lb tank to up to $300 and more. Small cans, containing 12 oz, have more than doubled or tripled in price.


There is more to it than that, but that is good enough for most people not in the industry.


Gimme the MORE man!


OK. R134a, like most automotive use chemicals is a commodity. Everyone who uses it tries to get it to be as fixed an expense as possible. Long term contracts for supply are the norm so that users (distributors and automakers mainly) can lock in a fixed cost for the product and know their production or supply expenditure as far in advance as possible. So, when the demand goes up, there is little incentive to increase supply as profit margins will be dictated, for the most part, by the existing contracts. Conversely, sitting back and not increasing capacity guarantees the supplier that by the end of the current contracts the prices will have escalated and they will be able to actually maintain a cost (inflation and other) adjusted margin or even increase it. Price adjustments for commodities are VERY difficult to get. It is a risk because there is the danger of other suppliers taking away your contracts since you genuinely do not have capacity to meet increases nor can you go after new business.

R134a is pricing more complex than that of most automotive chemical commodities, however, and the simple explanation rendered in the above paragraph is not sufficient to explain the current situation. The manufacture of refrigerant is dominated by EI du Pont de Nemours. What they decide to do dictates the American (and I believe the global) market for R134a. With a lack of strong competition, the dangers of market share erosion from lack of investment in capacity is minimized. Furthermore, I believe thatthe process of making R134a is complex and requires significant physical infrastructure to create, so it is unlikely that competitors will surface and take away customers before a response can be made. Compounding the situation is the lack of alternatives to R134a. You either have R134a, or you don't have air conditioning. A captive market means that there is even less danger of losing customers.

Basically, what it boils down to is that there is absolutely no reason for the manufacturer not to make your R134a cost $9 a can.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:30 am 
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All gases mix. (unless they react to each other like chlorine and ammonia)

All gases are non-ideal. Not because they can condense into a liquid (because all can) but because of their electronics. The IG equation is for small spheres of infinite hardness and zero electronic component.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:37 am 
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this is great. it's like dueling slide rulers.

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I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.


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