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No, I wouldn't be caught dead in this car, but it is just fine with my mother in law...

Her car was overheating on the way to work today (cloud of white smoke, which was coolant spraying from top of engine). She had it towed to a local franchise car maintenance store (no need to mention name at this point). They performed a pressure test on the coolant system and said it had a cracked intake manifold.

I know next to nothing about this car, but a quick Google search show that the 1995-1997 4.6L V8 Crown Vic has a known defective (or just bad design) plastic intact manifold that has some type of coolant connector that fails with the symptoms she was experiencing. Ford had a recall (or warrantee extension) that I think MAY have run out in 2003. No idea if this vehicle is covered or not. I will get the VIN tonight and check with Ford tomorrow.

The place mentioned above is quoting the following...

$579 replacement manifold parts
$416 labor

They also claim that the transmission fluid "smells burnt" and that because (news to me) the radiator has lines for both the engine coolant and transmission fluid, that the overheated coolant may have cooked the transmission fluid. So, for about an additional $200 or so they would replace the thermostat, and do some sort of service on the transmission. They are also saying that a car of this age may have brittle plug wire and that when the remove the manifold that those may get damaged, so they are saying those "might" need to be replaced at about $98. At this point the estimate (with optional items) is getting into the $1200+ territory.

Ok, I have Hondas and they never have problems, so this is all new to me. I think even the price for the manifold seems high (maybe it's not) and the rest of it seems pretty inflated. I have zero experience with auto-transmissions, so the story on how the coolant overheating affecting the transmission fluid just sounds like an excuse to service the transmission. I had no idea that some radiators had a line from the transmission running through the same core used by the engine coolant? Same deal with the plug wires.

It is not my money, but the mother-in-law is on a VERY tight budget at this point and she should not be spending close to $1K unless she really needs to do so.

I am almost ready (assuming Ford says "no" to the warrantee idea) of just pulling enough stuff off of the manifold so that I can find the crack and fix it up using some JB Weld. If that doesn't cure the problem then maybe I will do it myself (i.e. buy the manifold and replace it myself). Either way, she is looking to ditch this car and get something more reliable. It has had some other problems in the past year and I think it is just going to become a maintenance headache.

Anyone with experience with this engine who can comment on this?

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

My boss's wife has a 97 Town Car with that motor. It split a manifold about a year ago. He bitched enough that the dealer gave him the new and improved manifold for free. Our mechanic in residence changed it out in about 3 - 4 hours. (He was a toyota guy.) The plug wires should be fine if you are careful with them. I would skip the transmission service at the shop. You can do that yourself later. The thermostat change is probably a good idea since it is likely to be the original and cooked.

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George Bright Member # 141
One of the youngest of the old farts.
Yes I voted against you joining the club.

The water passage part of the plastic intake manifold on the 4.6 l Ford engine is a known weak point for all engines built until about 2002. There was an extended warranty for some years (ours ran out a few months before the water passage split on our 97 Mustang last year)

Note that the replacement manifold now uses a separate aluminum water passage . . . as did production engines starting sometime after my 01 Mustang was built

It has to be fixed!!!

There is "logic" to all the shop's claims but their prices seem high. We had ours done for just under $900 total by Fix and Fly on Westgate near the airport. We did not need plug wires or transmission work. However, our fluid had been changed regularly and hers may already be tired.

Dick

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

FYI the split is likely to be on the underside of the manifold and probably is not "JBWeldable". I suspect the problem is that as the plastic gets old it gets brittle. The high labor charge is due to all the "stuff" in the way. Note that unless the engine was damaged from overheating, the 4.6 engines are VERY tough.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

This is pretty much standard on all cars with an automatic transmission. It doesn't share any of the "finned" part, just a section within the bottom "housing". (Thus the cooling is liquid to liquid, not liquid to air like the actual coolant.) Connections are on left and right rear bottom of the radiator.

Anders

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Lina Racing: As Seen On Radio

So just to make sure I understand this correctly... The engine coolant is assumed to have been cooled to a low enough temp that it can effectively cool the transmission fluid. And if the engine coolent is not cooled enough, then the transmission fluid does not get cooled. If so, that sounds like a bad design to me. But I guess it would work if everything is working correctly.

By the way, I am looking to source the intake manifold via online parts shop and do this myself over the weekend. Mother-in-law can't afford the $1k bill for this. Someone tell me if this is insane (i.e. there is X part that I just shouldn't attempt to take off myself, etc.)

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Correct.


If by "bad design" you mean "has 50 years of working without problems for hundreds of millions of vehicles", then yes, it's a bad design.

You already know what caused the problem: cracked intake manifold. The other designs aren't faulty because they (may have) caused damage after the system was abused by the user (driven when car was indicating that it was overheated). That secondary damage is just a victim of the first malfunction.

Of course, it's also possible that the transmission fluid was very low, and that caused the burning, and it has nothing to do with the radiator.

Cheers,
Anders

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Lina Racing: As Seen On Radio

I guess we are not driving this thing to the moon, so no need for triple redundent systems.

Thanks for the info everyone!

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Richard,

When sourcing the new manifold try to get it as a "kit" with all relevant parts. You might be able to get the "kit" at the lowest possible price from Capital Ford using the Tarheel Club discount. Replace the thermostat while you are at it and freshen/replace the coolant. Be sure the replacement has the aluminum water passage (assuming the Crown Vic version has upgraded to that like the one for our 97 Mustang did).

If you replace the plug wires, go with Ford even though the price may be higher the quality is pretty good compared to lots of aftermarket wires what I've heard.

Make sure you don't drop any loose parts into the ports, etc. (V-8's have lots of "upward facing holes" ).

I got lazy and didn't do ours myself but I'll try to look through the shop manual to find any specific "gotchas".

Dick

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Oh this isn't insane. Even if it takes the weekend and knuckles get skinned and the cost goes up, think of all the points you will be building up by doing this You won't get "Honey, another damn autocross again, I never see you"......Oh wait, your wife goes with you It should be so worth it.

I haven't changed a manifold since highschool and carbs, but I would think that it is more the pain of making sure things get taken off and put back on in the right order and the engine stays clean.

Good Luck

Richard,

PM me if you would like me to either FAX or snail mail (or maybe even scan and e-mail) 4 pages from our 1997 Mustang shop manual covering intake manifold r & r for the Mustang version of the 4.6L.

Dick

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Dick, Thanks for the offer!! I sent you a PM with my contact info. I was going to buy a Haynes or Chilton manual to get the instructions for the removal/reinstallation of the manifold but will not have to do that now.

I just ordered a third party kit for this. A company named "Dorman" makes a kit that is probably somewhat of a clone of the improved Ford part. It has the aluminum coolant crossover (so this should not happen again) and also includes the thermostat, built in gasket, etc. I believe it is going to be cheaper than the real Ford parts. This kit is about $200 and I think that buying just the real Ford Manifold online (which includes a discount already) it would be about $300+. Gasket, etc. would all be extra.

http://www.naparts.com/ProductModelDeta ... elId=11498

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Richard,

I e-mailed the scanned pages (huge file). Let me know if they didn't make it and I'll fax them to your work fax on Wed.

Thanks for the info on the Dorman replacements. Wish I had done that research before paying big bucks for the Ford kit. The Dorman kit looks like it includes everything the Ford kit had. I'll have to keep it in mind if/when my 2001 springs a leak . . . if making sure about rule compliance for Stock isn't a issue.

Dick

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Update...

I worked this weekend on replacing the intake manifold. Other than a manifold bolt that is located directly under the windshield wiper motor/linkage it was not that difficult to do. After taking my time and spending over a day on this, it started right up. However I had an engine miss under load. I started the "swap parts until it works" approach and bought new plug wires. It was a worse after I did that. I now misses all of the time and the CEL is now on.

The car has 105K miles on it and had a lot of grit, dirt, etc. on the engine. The machined surface on the heads that the manifold mounts onto also is where the spark plugs are located. So the top of the deep well in which they live is the low point and acts like a funnel for all of the crap that lands on top of the engine. If it doesn't make it's way past the plug wire seal, then it sits on top. After pulling the plug wires to clean this surface so I could put on the new manifold I could see water, dirt and other stuff in on the plugs (no suprise). I used compressed air to blow as much of that out as I could. I wanted to pull out the plugs to check/replace, but with the Qty of crap on them that I just was not able to remove, I was afraid to pull any out. This also made it difficult to move over the fuel injectors and rails and try to keep them clean at the same time.

So without a scan tool and having to go back to work, the car is in the shop for someone else to diagnose the ignition problem. I suspect... arc around wet plugs, bad plugs, vacuum leak, dirty injectors. I keep thinking I needs to buy an ODB2 scan tool, but just can't seem to justify it yet.

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.