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 Post subject: singing diff
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:38 pm 
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My stiffness is only an illusion
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I had the rear clutch plates replaced last fall in the mustang and ever since then I've had a little higher noise but nothing the radio couldn't handle. I've also replaced the upper control arm to poly and that prompted the dynamatt install. I'm also running redline's 75-140 gear oil. I had the pinion angle set on Friday via the new adjustable poly bushings. On the way up the NCCAR, I noticed more noise, but not terrible. Jordan and drove the car and beat up on it pretty well.

On the way home, I couldn't hear myself think when that car hit 62 indicated on the GPS. The rear end whine was ear piercing, so something is on the fritz. The noise is also only under accel, not decel. Steve suggested the new redline shockproof gear oil. What have I done and what is making the noise? I'm assuming this may be a bearing issue. Would changing the oil be my first step? Would be a cheap fix.

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Rodney

'08 Bullitt mustang, CAM 7
Autox VP '09-'10, President '11-'12, interim President 2nd half of ‘14
proud recipient of the Bowie Grey service award '12
Now just a guy driving a mustang....


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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:25 pm 
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Location: Raleigh, NC
Didn't know about recent replacement of clutch pack...maybe return to mechanic and request a do-over?

Edit....consider sending a sample of the gear oil to Blackstone for analysis. Tell them about new oil, new clutch pack, miles driven etc. It's cheap to do and could be helpful going forward.

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1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:33 pm 
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You're just jealous

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:14 pm
Posts: 2553
Location: Raleigh, NC
Rodney,

1) Shockproof is extremely slippery so I don't know if it is what you want for a clutch type limited slip diff. Lightweight Shockproof is 75W-140. I use it in the Formula Ford's transaxle (open diff and dog ring "syncros").

2) I did a quick Google and found this (unknown credibility) http://mustangforums.com/forum/2005-201 ... whine.html

My gut feel is that unless something is rapidly failing in the diff the poly bushings are transmitting the existing whine. Was the car loaded differently for the drive home other than maybe significantly more or less fuel?

Per the shop manual for my 2012:

Quote:

Axle howling or whine

Axle lubricant low
CHECK the lubricant level. FILL the axle to specification. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Tuned dampers missing or incorrectly installed
REFER to the TSB and follow the procedure outlined.

Axle housing damage
INSPECT the axle housing for damage. REPAIR or INSTALL a new axle as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Damaged or worn wheel hub bearings
CHECK for abnormal rear wheel bearing play or roughness. INSTALL a new wheel bearing as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Damaged or worn differential ring and pinion
INSPECT and INSTALL a new differential ring and pinion as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Damaged or worn differential side or pinion bearings
INSPECT and INSTALL new differential side or pinion bearings as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Howl — can occur at various speeds and driving conditions. Affected by acceleration and deceleration
Incorrect ring and pinion contact, incorrect bearing preload or gear damage
INSPECT and REPAIR as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .






Since the poly bushings correlate with the increase whine they are my first candidate. However, it might be a good idea to check for nasty metal if you can get a magnet into the diff filler plug hole far enough to check.

3) I've changed Mustang diff clutches once myself and watched a shop do it once. Nothing with the clutch change "should" have impacted the causes of whine afaik. I did have clutch plate related noises that are very different from gear whine that new clutches solved.

4) Long shot since this probably isn't the cause: Did you drive on the ZII's? If so, did the noise start with them? My ZII whine is at about 75 mph per gps (265/35x18)

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FS 50 2018 Mustang GT


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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:05 pm 
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My stiffness is only an illusion
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Location: on line looking at car ads
Dick, I had the clutch pack installed via a friend, so there's no "going back to the mechanic" option there. I actually helped w/ the work, so I didn't see anything weird when we put it back together. It was not the new tires as that was a consistent noise and a low "roar". What I heard was a drill in your skull noise...

When I swapped the ZII's back for the street tires, I noticed gear oil on the inside of the rim of the left rear wheel, that in itself is not a good sign and I'm probably in need of outer axle seals at this time. I think I'm going to be brave and pull the center gear set, remove the axles and replace the seals and add new gear oil. I'll check for metal by dropping the diff cover. If I see metal, I'll put it back together and seek professional help. If no metal, I'll replace the seals and add new gear oil and go from there.

_________________
Rodney

'08 Bullitt mustang, CAM 7
Autox VP '09-'10, President '11-'12, interim President 2nd half of ‘14
proud recipient of the Bowie Grey service award '12
Now just a guy driving a mustang....


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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:39 pm 
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You're just jealous

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:14 pm
Posts: 2553
Location: Raleigh, NC
RodneyWright wrote:
Dick, I had the clutch pack installed via a friend, so there's no "going back to the mechanic" option there. I actually helped w/ the work, so I didn't see anything weird when we put it back together. It was not the new tires as that was a consistent noise and a low "roar". What I heard was a drill in your skull noise...

When I swapped the ZII's back for the street tires, I noticed gear oil on the inside of the rim of the left rear wheel, that in itself is not a good sign and I'm probably in need of outer axle seals at this time. I think I'm going to be brave and pull the center gear set, remove the axles and replace the seals and add new gear oil. I'll check for metal by dropping the diff cover. If I see metal, I'll put it back together and seek professional help. If no metal, I'll replace the seals and add new gear oil and go from there.


Drill in your skull noise sounds like time for professional help of some sort . . . :lol:

FYI my impression is that if the axle seals are leaking it frequently means the bearings and integral race on the axle are worn. Which I think means either a new half shaft or an "axle saver bearing". Of course it could also be seal damage during the clutch plate project since it apparently is pretty easy to do so.

Diff oil low enough to make nasty noises would seem to have made a pretty big mess. :?

For reference here is a copy of the complete Ford rear axle NVH diagnostic info from the 2012 manual.

Quote:
Condition Possible Sources Action


Axle howling or whine
Axle lubricant low
CHECK the lubricant level. FILL the axle to specification. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Tuned dampers missing or incorrectly installed
REFER to the TSB and follow the procedure outlined.

Axle housing damage
INSPECT the axle housing for damage. REPAIR or INSTALL a new axle as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Damaged or worn wheel hub bearings
CHECK for abnormal rear wheel bearing play or roughness. INSTALL a new wheel bearing as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Damaged or worn differential ring and pinion
INSPECT and INSTALL a new differential ring and pinion as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Damaged or worn differential side or pinion bearings
INSPECT and INSTALL new differential side or pinion bearings as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Driveline clunk — loud clunk when shifting from REVERSE to DRIVE
Incorrect axle lubricant level
CHECK the lubricant level. FILL the axle to specification. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Excessive backlash in the axle
CHECK the ring gear backlash. REPAIR as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Damaged or worn pinion bearings
REPAIR or INSTALL new pinion bearings as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Damaged or worn U-joints
INSPECT the U-joints for wear or damage. INSTALL new U-joints or driveshaft as necessary. REFER to Section 205-01 .

Driveline clunk — occurs as the vehicle starts to move forward following a stop
Worn driveshaft CV joint or U-joints
INSPECT the CV joint and U-joints for wear. INSTALL a new driveshaft or U-joints as necessary. REFER to Section 205-01 .

Loose axle mount
CHECK the axle for loose bolts. TIGHTEN to specification. REFER to Section 205-02 .

High pitched chattering — noise from the axle when the vehicle is turning
Incorrect or contaminated lubricant
CHECK the vehicle by driving in tight circles (5 clockwise, 5 counterclockwise). FLUSH and REFILL with the specified rear axle lubricant and friction modifier as necessary.

Damaged or worn differential (differential side gears and pinion gears)
REPAIR or INSTALL new differential side gears or pinion gears as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Rumble or boom — noise occurs at coast/deceleration, usually driveshaft speed-related and noticeable over a wide range of speeds
Excessive driveshaft runout and/or driveshaft is out-of-balance
CHECK the driveshaft runout and balance. REFER to Driveshaft Runout and Balancing in this section.

Binding or seized U-joints
ROTATE the driveshaft and CHECK for binding or seized U-joints. INSTALL new U-joints or driveshaft as necessary. REFER to Section 205-01 .

Grunting — normally associated with a shudder experienced during acceleration from a complete stop
Binding driveshaft CV joint
INSPECT the driveshaft CV joint for binding. INSTALL a new driveshaft as necessary. REFER to Section 205-01 .

Loose axle mount bolts or suspension fasteners
INSPECT the rear suspension and axle. TIGHTEN the fasteners to specification. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Howl — can occur at various speeds and driving conditions. Affected by acceleration and deceleration
Incorrect ring and pinion contact, incorrect bearing preload or gear damage
INSPECT and REPAIR as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Chuckle — heard at coast/deceleration. Also described as a knock
Incorrect ring and pinion contact or damaged teeth on the coast side of the ring and pinion
INSPECT and REPAIR as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Knock — noise occurs at various speeds. Not affected by acceleration or deceleration
Gear tooth damage to the drive side of the ring and pinion
INSTALL a new ring and pinion. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Scraping noise — a continuous low pitched noise starting at low speeds
Worn or damaged pinion bearings
INSPECT and REPAIR or INSTALL new pinion bearings. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Driveline shudder — occurs during acceleration from a slow speed or stop
Incorrect transmission crossmember orientation
CHECK for correct orientation. REINSTALL if necessary. REFER to Section 502-00 .

Center bearing spacer missing or incorrectly installed
CHECK for correct installation of center bearing spacer. REFER to Section 205-01 .

Drive axle assembly mispositioned
CHECK the axle mounts and the rear suspension for damage or wear. REPAIR as necessary. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Loose axle bolts
CHECK the axle for loose bolts. TIGHTEN the bolts to specification. REFER to Section 205-02 .

Driveline angles out of specification
CHECK for correct driveline angles. REFER to Driveline Angle Measurement in this section.

U-joints binding or seized
ROTATE the driveshaft and CHECK for binding or seized U-joints. INSTALL new U-joints or driveshaft as necessary. REFER to Section 205-01 .

Binding or damaged driveshaft CV joint
INSPECT the driveshaft CV joint for binding or damage. INSTALL a new driveshaft as necessary. REPAIR as necessary. REFER to Section 205-01 .

Driveline vibration — occurs at cruising speeds
Missing weights or damage to driveshaft
INSPECT the driveshaft. INSTALL a new driveshaft as necessary. REFER to Section 205-01 .

Worn U-joints
CHECK for wear or incorrect seating. INSTALL new U-joints or driveshaft as necessary. REFER to Section 205-01 .

Misalignment of yellow dot on driveshaft-to-yellow dot on pinion flange plus or minus 1 bolt hole
REINSTALL driveshaft with yellow dots aligned plus or minus 1 bolt hole. REFER to Section 205-01 .

Worn or damaged driveshaft center bearing support
CHECK the insulator for damage or wear. ROTATE the driveshaft and CHECK for rough operation. INSTALL a new driveshaft as necessary. REFER to Section 205-01 .

Loose axle pinion flange bolts
INSPECT the axle pinion flange. TIGHTEN the pinion flange bolts to specification. REFER to Section 205-01 .

Excessive axle pinion flange runout
CHECK the pinion flange runout. REPAIR as necessary. REFER to Pinion Flange Runout Check in this section.

Excessive transmission flange runout
CHECK the transmission flange runout. REPAIR as necessary. REFER to Specifications in this section.

Binding or damaged driveshaft CV joint
INSPECT the driveshaft CV joint for binding or damage. INSTALL a new driveshaft as necessary. REFER to Section 205-01 .

Excessive driveshaft runout and/or driveshaft out-of-balance
CHECK the driveshaft runout and balance. REFER to Driveshaft Runout and Balancing in this section.

Driveline angles out of specification
CHECK for correct driveline angles. REPAIR as necessary. REFER to Driveline Angle Measurement in this section.

Transmission mount not centered
NEUTRALIZE the transmission mount. REFER to the Transmission Crossmember procedure in Section 502-00 .



Analysis of Leakage

Clean the leaking area enough to identify the exact source.

A plugged axle housing vent can cause excessive pinion seal lip wear due to internal pressure buildup.

Verify the lubricant level is at specification.

Axle Vent

A plugged axle vent causes excessive seal lip wear due to internal pressure buildup. If a leak occurs, check the axle vent. If the axle vent cannot be cleared, install a new axle vent.

Drive Pinion Seal

Leaks at the drive pinion seal originate from the following causes:

Damaged seal
Worn seal journal surface
Any damage to the seal bore (dings, dents, gouges or other imperfections) distorts the seal casing and allows leakage past the outer edge of the drive pinion seal.

The drive pinion seal can be torn, cut or gouged if it is not installed correctly. The spring that holds the drive pinion seal against the pinion flange may be knocked out and allow fluid to pass the lip.

Metal chips trapped at the sealing lip can cause oil leaks. These can cause a wear groove on the drive pinion flange and result in drive pinion seal wear.

When a drive pinion seal leak occurs, install a new drive pinion seal and check the axle vent to make sure it is clean and free of foreign material.

Install a new drive pinion flange if any of these conditions exist.

Drive Pinion Nut

NOTICE: Install the drive pinion nut to the correct torque specifications or damage to the differential components may occur.

On some high-mileage vehicles, oil may leak through the threads of the drive pinion nut. This condition can be corrected by installing a new drive pinion nut and applying threadlock on the threads and nut face.

Differential Seals

NOTICE: When installing shafts, do not allow splines to contact seals during installation or damage to the seals may occur.

Differential housing seals are susceptible to the same types of damage as drive pinion seals if incorrectly installed. The seal bore must be clean and the lip handled carefully to avoid cutting or tearing it. The seal journal surface must be free of nicks, gouges and rough surface texture.


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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT


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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:16 pm 
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Posts: 3276
Location: Durham, NC
I can't speak to classic Ford/GM rear differential stuff, but I can speak to Porsche transmissions (which I rebuild as a side business) that include the same basic ring/pinion setup (and issues), but in the main box (transaxle) instead as in a separate housing. I think much of the same basics apply to both...

1. Noise (particularly "whine") typically equals problems. Generally this is bearing issues and/or ring/pinion mesh issues.
2. Low fluid is always bad
3. Be careful about hopping between lubricants in search of solving problems. It can work in some situations, but I think people put too much faith in a given lubricant to work magic. I think the main issues these can resolve is around shift feel (impacts to friction with the synchronizers in the transmission) or LSD engagement feel (different friction modifiers that impact clutch pack performance). I sometimes see people using regular transmission gear oil (i.e. GL-4 spec that is designed for use with straight cut or helical cut gears) in differentials instead of a differential oil (i.e. GL-5 spec designed for hypoid gears). Using the wrong type will damage your ring and pinion gears. Some lubricant vendors do a really bad job of providing the information needed to figure out what you need. IMHO, Redline is one of those that can easily result in the wrong lubricant being used in a differential or a transaxle. To hammer this home, helical gears and hypoid gears are not the same thing. Hypoid gears (such as in ring and pinion) have a "sliding" or "scraping" contact patch, while helical (and straight cut) gears do not. The lubrication requirements are different for each, with hypoid having the tougher requirement.

Richard

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1972 Porsche 914
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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:37 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:14 pm
Posts: 2028
Location: Raleigh, NC
RodneyWright wrote:
Dick, I had the clutch pack installed via a friend, so there's no "going back to the mechanic" option there. I actually helped w/ the work, so I didn't see anything weird when we put it back together. It was not the new tires as that was a consistent noise and a low "roar". What I heard was a drill in your skull noise...

When I swapped the ZII's back for the street tires, I noticed gear oil on the inside of the rim of the left rear wheel, that in itself is not a good sign and I'm probably in need of outer axle seals at this time. I think I'm going to be brave and pull the center gear set, remove the axles and replace the seals and add new gear oil. I'll check for metal by dropping the diff cover. If I see metal, I'll put it back together and seek professional help. If no metal, I'll replace the seals and add new gear oil and go from there.



Pretty sure low fluid/leaking seals is main culprit, followed by ring/pinion gear meshing out of spec. Don't think changing oil is going to help much, but since it is low you'll have to do it anyway. Hope it turns out OK!

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1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86


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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:24 pm 
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My stiffness is only an illusion
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Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:49 pm
Posts: 4658
Location: on line looking at car ads
I've decided to take this over to performance chassis for the work. Going to replace the outer seals and bearings and add the redline shockproof gear oil. I'll have them look at the alignment of the gearing while they have it torn down. I think I'm going to go ahead and add a finned diff cover just for heat dissipation and the addition of a drain plug for future use.

_________________
Rodney

'08 Bullitt mustang, CAM 7
Autox VP '09-'10, President '11-'12, interim President 2nd half of ‘14
proud recipient of the Bowie Grey service award '12
Now just a guy driving a mustang....


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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:58 pm 
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You're just jealous

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:14 pm
Posts: 2553
Location: Raleigh, NC
RodneyWright wrote:
I've decided to take this over to performance chassis for the work. Going to replace the outer seals and bearings and add the redline shockproof gear oil. I'll have them look at the alignment of the gearing while they have it torn down. I think I'm going to go ahead and add a finned diff cover just for heat dissipation and the addition of a drain plug for future use.


Rodney,

I'm still curious regarding why Shockproof which has a bunch of "make it really slippery and absorb impact loads" is appropriate for a clutch type limited slip or even a Torsen type. I could see using the NS gear oils (no friction modifiers) for a clutch type.

Never mind. Found this with Google even though I couldn't find it on the site.

http://www.redlineoil.com.au/Uploads/Do ... %20001.pdf

It will be interesting to see how it works for you.

If you haven't used it before Shockproof is "weird".


Thanks

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT


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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:32 pm 
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Location: Raleigh, NC
RodneyWright wrote:
I think I'm going to go ahead and add a Watts link kit just for improved badassery


FTFY

Seems only Fair.

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=526

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86


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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:27 pm 
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My stiffness is only an illusion
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:49 pm
Posts: 4658
Location: on line looking at car ads
Steven Carter wrote:
RodneyWright wrote:
I think I'm going to go ahead and add a Watts link kit just for improved badassery


FTFY

Seems only Fair.

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=526


Those things are pricey!!! So someone is going to have to educate me on how a watts link is so much better and worth the cost over a simple panhard bar. I don't understand how these things work....

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Rodney

'08 Bullitt mustang, CAM 7
Autox VP '09-'10, President '11-'12, interim President 2nd half of ‘14
proud recipient of the Bowie Grey service award '12
Now just a guy driving a mustang....


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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:44 pm 
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You're just jealous

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:14 pm
Posts: 2553
Location: Raleigh, NC
RodneyWright wrote:
Steven Carter wrote:
RodneyWright wrote:
I think I'm going to go ahead and add a Watts link kit just for improved badassery


FTFY

Seems only Fair.

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=526


Those things are pricey!!! So someone is going to have to educate me on how a watts link is so much better and worth the cost over a simple panhard bar. I don't understand how these things work....


Beats me but here is some info:

http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails. ... &ModelID=5

http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails. ... &ModelID=5

http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails. ... &ModelID=5

FYI I think the rule change for this year resolves the legality of the diff cover mounted versions.

Based on various autox forum posts I get the impression that a Watts link has a lot of setup variables which means lots of testing to try to find some sort of "optimum under certain conditions" setting. So unless you are planing on testing a lot (like where? :( ) it seems like a waste unless a supplier can get you extremely close with a recommended setup.

Strano's website has similar info about Panhard bars.

Dick
Prefers Stock (aka Street now) or Formula Fords :lol:

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Dick Rasmussen

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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:55 pm 
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Rodney, a pan hard bar is great for NASCAR where you turn in one direction because you can tune the length, attachment location, stiffness to be as ideal as possible for left hand turns. However, one side is always going to be a compromise. The roll center and lateral placement of the pumpkin changes as the rear suspension travels through compression and rebound so it'll always turn a bit differently one way than the other. For DDing, you can't tell I'm sure, but autox/track, maybe.

Watts linkages makes this system symmetrical but has the tuning/setup concerns that Dick mention but ultimately results in a more ideal scenario for turning well in both directions.

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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:07 pm 
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Dick, Rodney's in CAM (heretofore known as Classic American Mullet, thanks to Mr Westerfield) where that stuff is completely open, regardless of mounting points. Blingy parts for ancient rear suspension designs make you fastererer, no one has to know why! :thumbsup:

Rodney, if you're adding a swanky diff cover and a rebuilt diff, it's only a little bit more for the Watts kit. You know you are already down the rabbit hole....go ahead, embrace the Dark Side of "Parts Creep." :lol:

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86


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 Post subject: Re: singing diff
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:15 pm 
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You're just jealous

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:14 pm
Posts: 2553
Location: Raleigh, NC
Steven Carter wrote:
Dick, Rodney's in CAM (heretofore known as Classic American Mullet, thanks to Mr Westerfield) where that stuff is completely open. Blingy parts for ancient rear suspension designs make you fastererer, no one has to know why! :thumbsup:

Rodney, if you're adding a swanky diff cover and a rebuilt diff, it's only a little bit more for the Watts kit. You know you are already down the rabbit hole....go ahead, embrace the Dark Side of "Parts Creep." :lol:


Forgot about the CAM thing. Must be me being classic and mindless.

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