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 Post subject: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:52 pm 
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Posts: 832
My F250 Powerstroke diesel pickup appears to need some new glow plugs and I am lacking enthusiasm to do it myself. (Of course I may get more motivated after getting a quote. :shock: )
Do any of you fine folks have a repair shop that you would recommend?

The glow plug relay is functioning properly, so it is either a broken wire inside the valve covers or the glow plugs have died....or there is something that is totally baffling to me (or something only a diesel mechanic would know).

Time to think about towing a rally-x car to the dirt.
Regards,
Charlie Guthrie

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1998 BMW Z3
1987 BMW 325is
2000 BMW
1996 F250 Turbo Diesel


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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:23 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:54 pm
Posts: 347
Location: Apex, NC
Several of my 4x4 friends recommend this guy in Garner:

Chason Diesel
513 Dynamic Dr, Garner, NC 27529
(919) 772-7167
http://chasondieselservice.com/

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91 RallyX Audi Coupe Quattro
89 A-Team Astro-van demo derby winner at 2011 NC State Fair (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MrZqwENRqU)
Broken 89 Subaru GL-10 RallyX turbo wagon - need to sell it and all my parts cars


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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:54 am 
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I got a SUX2000!
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Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:07 am
Posts: 2443
Location: In the garage, under a big old Mercedes
Charlie, the truck service department at Capital Ford in Raleigh has treated me very well. You can read about my experiences in this thread, which covers both Capital and University.

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2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:55 am 
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Where BMWs come to die

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:15 am
Posts: 1398
Location: Old Cleveland School, NC
Charlie Guthrie wrote:
My F250 Powerstroke diesel pickup appears to need some new glow plugs and I am lacking enthusiasm to do it myself. (Of course I may get more motivated after getting a quote. :shock: )
Do any of you fine folks have a repair shop that you would recommend?

The glow plug relay is functioning properly, so it is either a broken wire inside the valve covers or the glow plugs have died....or there is something that is totally baffling to me (or something only a diesel mechanic would know).

Time to think about towing a rally-x car to the dirt.
Regards,
Charlie Guthrie


Having owned a truck with the same engine as yours, I've been through some of these headaches. <knock wood> I have yet to take my truck to a "professional" mechanic</knock wood> I know you probably don't want to futz with it, but there are some good troubleshooting procedures out there for checking glow plugs (in the head) using a basic multi meter. I replaced the glow plugs on my truck when I first got it, and it wasn't too bad. Hardest part was getting the passenger side valve cover off and out of the engine bay (heater box blocks it in pretty good). But once the valve covers are off, the glow plugs are not hard at all to get to- provided you have a deep slip socket to fit them. Not nearly as hard as changing spark plugs on some vehicles I've worked on. Autozone used to be the place to buy Motorcraft glow plugs as cheap as anywhere, not sure if this is still the case.

I'm sure you probably know this too, but when my glow plugs were bad, plugging the block heater in for a couple of hours before needing to start the truck worked wonders- I got around like this for a while with bad glow plugs and it was no big deal.

If you don't want to tackle the job, I completely understand. There used to be a place out near the Fairgrounds on Hwy 54 that advertised that they were "Powerstroke Specialists" but I don't know anything about them, or even if they're still there.


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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:20 pm 
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Posts: 832
Thanks for the advice guys.
Bret, how hard was it to get the passenger valve cover out? That is what had me thinking about having someone else do the work. I even considered doing the driver's side and hoping that it would be enough to get the truck started when cold or chilly. I've been using the block heater for pre-planned trips; even have it on an extension cord with a timer that comes on before I get up for driving to work occasionally.
The real motivation is so that I can use the truck for camping when it's still chilly out. Last fall the weather turned cold without warning and it was a struggle to start the truck waaaaaay out there in the boonies.
The emergency strategy is either, but that must be used VERY cautiously. The only way I figure that I could use ether would be to spray some in the intake before ever turning on the ignition and then not allowing the glow plugs to heat up before starting. If even one glow plug was hot when the intake valve opened, the ether could ignite and blow the intake off. Obviously, that would be the absolute last resort.
I think I'll get a couple of quotes from Chason and Capitol before making up my mind.
Thanks,
Charlie G

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1998 BMW Z3
1987 BMW 325is
2000 BMW
1996 F250 Turbo Diesel


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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Where BMWs come to die

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:15 am
Posts: 1398
Location: Old Cleveland School, NC
Charlie Guthrie wrote:
Thanks for the advice guys.
Bret, how hard was it to get the passenger valve cover out? That is what had me thinking about having someone else do the work. I even considered doing the driver's side and hoping that it would be enough to get the truck started when cold or chilly. I've been using the block heater for pre-planned trips; even have it on an extension cord with a timer that comes on before I get up for driving to work occasionally.
The real motivation is so that I can use the truck for camping when it's still chilly out. Last fall the weather turned cold without warning and it was a struggle to start the truck waaaaaay out there in the boonies.
The emergency strategy is either, but that must be used VERY cautiously. The only way I figure that I could use ether would be to spray some in the intake before ever turning on the ignition and then not allowing the glow plugs to heat up before starting. If even one glow plug was hot when the intake valve opened, the ether could ignite and blow the intake off. Obviously, that would be the absolute last resort.
I think I'll get a couple of quotes from Chason and Capitol before making up my mind.
Thanks,
Charlie G



It's been a while, but I got it done, so it must not have been *that* hard. :D

Seriously though, I seem to remember having to struggle with it, and it was mostly just twisting and pulling to get it out without breaking anything. Seems like the foil-covered insulation that's on the outside of the heater box caused some of the clearance issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:48 pm 
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I got a SUX2000!
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Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:07 am
Posts: 2443
Location: In the garage, under a big old Mercedes
You made me curious, so I just went and looked under the hood of my '99. Among the things I see potentially blocking my ability to remove the passenger side valve cover:

- Heater plumbing
- Some parts of the HVAC system
- Various electricals
- Intercooler tubing (yours may not have that?)
- Alternator
- Possibly even the turbo, hard to tell for sure with it being so far back there

Egads. There's probably an amount of money you could pay me to change the glow plugs on mine, but it would have to be a BIG number. I got really lucky when mine developed a miss because of an under valve cover gasket - it was the driver side. That one was relatively easy to get out.

I may have mentioned this in the past, but in case I didn't. If you go to do it yourself, when you buy parts, check with the International dealer too. That UVCG was a lot cheaper there than it was at the Ford dealer. I don't remember the difference, but it was enough to make it worth the trip. And, they had it in stock.

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2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)


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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:07 am 
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Nay
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:35 pm
Posts: 1273
Location: Raleighwood
There is also a porblem with the wiring that is part of the valve cover gaskets. Wires in these tend to break. I am not sure if the glow plug wires are part of this. You might want to check to make sure that there is power to the glow plugs before you replace them.

If you need to ether the motor to start it you can disconnect the power to the glow plugs. On the 450 I used to drive it was a relay on top of the motor. At TRC we also had a problem with our power stroke starting. It had new glow plugs and batteries. The problem was the starter was tired and did not spin the motor fast enough. The problem happened mostly when I would stop for fuel and tried a hot restart of the motor. This does not sound as likely for your case.

When the motor was right with new batteries it started in Maine after sitting overnight in -20F weather with out the block heater plugged in. However the vinyl seats felt like they were going to crumble apart. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:27 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:14 pm
Posts: 832
Thanks for the tip George. If I resort to ether, I'll definitely pull power to the glow plug relay.
The batteries and starter are both new (and were not the culprit for this cool start problem). The batteries died at Hanging Rock Park last year on a cool weekend, but a jump start got us home. The starter died just shy of Danville on the beginning of camping weekend. We stopped for dinner and could not restart. I field stripped the starter and the starter commutator was toast. Those were easy fixes.
I do recall reading somewhere that there are some under the valve cover wire breakage issues on the 7.3, so I may at least pull the easy driver's side cover and check first. If I could even it to light on 4 out of 8 cylinders, that might get it spinning fast enough to light the rest.
Charlie G

_________________
1998 BMW Z3
1987 BMW 325is
2000 BMW
1996 F250 Turbo Diesel


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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:16 pm 
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Where BMWs come to die

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:15 am
Posts: 1398
Location: Old Cleveland School, NC
Charlie,

I wouldn't hesitate to give it a shot, I would guesstimate that a shop would charge you $600-700 to replace the glow plugs.

You can probably do it in a couple of hours max, including breaks, and the glow plugs should cost around $120 or so for all 8.

Have you done the electric/resistance tests on each plug connector? This can really help pinpoint which plugs are bad and can help you determine if you need to replace all of them, or maybe one bank has a bad under valve cover harness.....


Here's a write-up I found that might help- I especially could have used the trick about spinning the plugs in and out using a short piece of tubing- I used the socket but it was slow going IIRC.


When replacing the glow plugs on these trucks they can put up one heck of a fight if they have been in there for awhile or have alot of carbon buildup, this article will help make them a little more cooprative.

This is a straight-forward service. After removing the valve covers and unplugging the glow plug(s), loosen the glow plug a couple of turns (10mm deep socket, 1/4" drive). Then push a 4-6" piece of vacuum line over the end of he glow plug and use the hose to unscrew and remove it. Use the hose to install and screw in the glow plug, then tighten with the socket. The socket will contact the rocker arms if used to remove the glow plug. If the glow plug is difficult to turn you may be able to loosen it by working it back and forth--turn counter clockwise one turn then clockwise half a turn--until it turns freely enough that it can be loosened with the hose. If the glow plug probe is severely carboned up or swollen, the barrel may screw out of the head leaving the probe stuck in the hole. In this instance you may be able to remove the probe by removing the adjancent rocker arm and push rod to gain enough room to get ahold of the probe with a pair of needle-nose pliers. Have someone hold the pliers to prevent the probe from falling into the cylinder and use a long punch to loosen the probe by tapping it down. Once the probe is broken loose, work it up and down in the hole until it can be pulled out--some WD 40 or other solvent may help to loosen any carbon on the probe once it can moved, just remember not to use too much and to remove any residual by cranking over the engine with the glow plug out. You may be able to dislodge the seize probe by cranking over the engine, just remember to reinstall the rocker and pushrod if removed, and place a blanket or fender cover over the glow plug to keep it from shooting out. If the probe falls into the cylinder or cannot be loosened, the head will have to be removed to extract the probe. To prevent damage, remove all the glow plugs on the head to be removed and install them after the head has been reinstalled.



And this for checking the relay and glow plug resistance (without removing the plugs or the valve covers):


How to check Glow Plug System

To check the Glow Plug Relay (GPR)
· Be sure the engine is cold, so that the PCM will tell the GPR to turn on. If the engine is hot, you won’t have as much time to check.
· Locate the GPR – Its behind the fuel filter on top of the engine, a little bit toward the passenger side of the valley. There may be two relays there. If so, the rear one is the GPR. It will have two fairly large wires (yellow and brown) connected to one of the large posts.
· With your multitmeter set to DC volts, and 15 V range (if not autoranging), clip the positive (red) lead to the output terminal (with yellow and brown wires connected), and the negative (black) lead to a good ground point (like the battery ground terminal or someplace metal directly on the engine block.)
· Turn the key to ON (do not start)
· If your GPR is good, it should click, and you’ll see 11 volts or so on your meter, then, depending on temperature, it will click off up to 2 minutes later. You should do this a couple of times to make sure it consistently makes the connection.
· If you don’t get voltage with this test, confirm by retesting as follows.
· Remove the two small wires from the smaller two of the four GPR terminals.
· With jumper wires, apply voltage from the battery across the two small terminals. If your voltmeter now reads voltage on the output terminal, your GPR is OK, and your problem is in the PCM circuit that tells the GPR to activate.

If your GPR is bad you can use the factory replacement for around $75, Napa's GP110 is close to this price maybe $10 cheaper. But you can get a GPR 109 from Napa for around $22.00 This is the same exact relay as the GP110 except the mounting holes are rotated 180 degrees, which is no big deal as the wires stretch just fine.
Now if you are tired of replacing your GPR and want a H.D. alternative may I suggest the Stancor 586-902. This is a large relay and it can truly handle the large AMP draw our trucks call for at start up. Gopher Electronics has these for under $40. I know several folks that live way up North (Alaska, Canada) where they know about serious cold starts and they all swear by the Stancor. I am very happy with mine, I believe I have pics of mine installed in my webshots.

To check Glow Plugs.
· Remove the electrical connector on the inboard side of valve cover at the gasket. Press down on the top of the connector latch and pry gently with a screwdriver. Photo of disconnecting one and another Photo of it loose.
· There will be 9 pins on the valve cover gasket where you removed the connector. The two pins furthest forward and the two pins furthest back are for your glow plugs.
· With your multimeter set to resistance (ohms) and low range (single digits) if not autoranging, clip the negative (black) lead to a good ground point.
· Probe each of the 4 outer pins individually with the positive (red) lead, noting the resistance. Good glow plugs will have a resistance between 0.6 and 2 ohms. If you get infinite resistance on any glow plug, that one is either bad or the connector under the valve cover has come loose.
Take Care
Kevin

Also let me add, that if your GPR does test pad you can use a Napa model #109, their book will call for the #110 but the 110 is around $60+ where the 109 is low $20's. They are the same exact sensor spec wise, the only difference is the mounting tabs are rotated 180 degrees, don't worry the wires make it fine. However if you really want a HD relay and one you won't have to change yearly, you should replace it with the HD Stancor unit, the model # is 586-902 and it is made to handle the 200 amp draw, whereas the others are made very cheaply.


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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:14 pm
Posts: 832
Pretty good write up Brett. Could you post the link to the write up so that I could check the photos? I'd really like to see this:
Quote:
Remove the electrical connector on the inboard side of valve cover at the gasket. Press down on the top of the connector latch and pry gently with a screwdriver. Photo of disconnecting one and another Photo of it loose.

I did the checks listed in the 7.3 repair guide, but they did not mention checking the resistance at the plug and that makes perfect sense. The manual recommended checking amp draw, but I don't have an ammeter that large.
Charlie G

_________________
1998 BMW Z3
1987 BMW 325is
2000 BMW
1996 F250 Turbo Diesel


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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:05 pm 
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Where BMWs come to die

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:15 am
Posts: 1398
Location: Old Cleveland School, NC
Charlie Guthrie wrote:
Pretty good write up Brett. Could you post the link to the write up so that I could check the photos? I'd really like to see this:
Quote:
Remove the electrical connector on the inboard side of valve cover at the gasket. Press down on the top of the connector latch and pry gently with a screwdriver. Photo of disconnecting one and another Photo of it loose.

I did the checks listed in the 7.3 repair guide, but they did not mention checking the resistance at the plug and that makes perfect sense. The manual recommended checking amp draw, but I don't have an ammeter that large.
Charlie G


I'll find the link, but it's on powerstroke.org forums, you have to register to see the posts, and there were no pics- though the author references pics.

Best I can tell about the pics, he's just referring to the harness connectors that plug into the valve cover gasket harness.


EDIT: linky (but no pics):

http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/genera ... r-gps.html


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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:14 pm
Posts: 832
I also found this short video showing how to check resistance of the glow plugs. Handy to see the connector pins shown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-sqAJ_Kh50
I also poked around the PowerStroke site for a while, but sometimes it tough to wade through the posts with nothing better than opinions...where are the real experts...oh, yeah, they're out making a living or drinking.
Charlie G

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1998 BMW Z3
1987 BMW 325is
2000 BMW
1996 F250 Turbo Diesel


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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:39 pm 
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i've found this site to be far more useful http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/


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 Post subject: Re: Diesel Engine Repair Recommendations?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:14 pm
Posts: 832
Good lead Jason. I used to use that site and lost my connection when I changed email servers. It was worth going back an registering again. I found good photos and write ups for the glow plug diagnostics and replacement. It doesn't sound much worse than replacing the fuel pump or the fuel filter housing.
Thanks,
Charlie G

_________________
1998 BMW Z3
1987 BMW 325is
2000 BMW
1996 F250 Turbo Diesel


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