THSCC Forums

free demos at the October 30 event and/or November Funcross would be cool, too...

Can video be integrated from, say, Go Pro or does it have to be a proprietary setup? (sorry if that's a dumb question...haven't checked your site yet.)

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

Video from just about any Digital file format. The software is free too. It does have to be on the PC though. The unit can not do that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb6btarxASs

I did just numbers vs gauges, but you can also do just about any number of ways.

Here's is a test I did to make a set of gauges like I have in the Cobra:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZT04GnO-LY

Sorry for the low res, it was an older 1 hz unit. The new ones are 10 hz.

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Marty Howard
2011 NASA SE Factory Five Challenge Champion
Track Events Logistics Coordinator - TZC/THSCC
2007 Factory Five Challenge Car.
http://www.mh-motorsports.com

I have a DIY version of this kit and will agree that this can be a useful tool in autocross. The last time I used it was at the 2009 NCAC. I brought the PDA and 5Hz GPS with me on morning course walks to "lay in" the course, start, and finish lines, and defined my segment locations. Then, after each run, I simply pull the PDA unit off the dash mount, select what I want to compare the run to, and can instantly compare segments to see what was working better, where I was gaining/losing time, etc...

I didn't read into enough detail above to see if accelerometer data is included or available in the package setup (I only use GPS), but if not this is one key difference area between systems - it's harder to say "I'm braking too hard/long" without accelerometers, but you can certainly still compare speeds at the end of a braking zone and get relative data.

In short, _some_ data is likely better than none, and I know I won't stick with a solution that will require I download info to a PC to evaluate.

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Dustin Fredrickson
-- I'm a nobody --

I had a lengthy conversation with Dave O'Maley at the NCAC about data acquisition. He is using the Race Technology DL1. Here's what I learned, for whatever it's worth.

Dave says that the biggest difference maker in his driving in the last year or so has been through data with video integration. One of my questions focused on having to use a PC to view the data, and how impractical that could be at an event. He responded even so, data helps you pick out patterns in your driving that repeat. Like, I'm always too late and too hard on the brakes, I'm late on the throttle, I always get choppy with my hands in slaloms, stuff like that.

You can do some really clever stuff with overlays with Race Technology's software, too, including video overlay. He says that this is especially powerful for those people who share a car with someone, but can also be beneficial to those running by themselves. Overlay puts the difference between your fastest and slowest runs right there. You can see what you're doing, and how it translates into stuff like G-loading and exit speed and whatever else.

Dave also told me that he has spent a lot - "hours and hours and hours" - poring over data and video, trying to improve. Before shelling out big money for a data system, I'm going to have to ask myself - am I really going to do that? It's a wonderful tool, but it takes a lot of time to learn how to use it, and to improve your driving thanks to it.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

The above is the most important statement about data I've seen.

It's something that takes a LOT of time to be willing to use. People like Don Knowles (multiple time Runoffs champion) talk about it all the time. He and his buddies go to the Runoffs and spend almost ALL their "down" time pouring over data. It's what they love to do and it finds them that edge.

In autocross it is different, as Dave pointed out, but it's still hours and hours you need to actually be willing to spend. It takes a LOT more time to get into the software and be able to understand it all than you'd think, then it takes a good amount of time using it. I admit that I have it and don't use it nearly as much as I could or should.

The funny thing is with road racing, it's easy to use it to grab a reasonable amount of time quickly if you have someone faster than you to compare to (and have invested the time already to know the software). In autocross, it's still much more difficult to find those things that get you significant time. It's there, and it's wonderful when you find it, but it can be much harder. The only "quick" way to find a lot of time I ever found for autocross data was at ProSolo's with a faster driver than you in the car. But you've got eight runs each and a full evening to look at data before you get four more runs at it, too. So you're finding time on the same course.

But with normal events, well, it's something you have to be willing to do what Dave said with, and that's look for the trends and work to get rid of those bad habits and repeatable errors. Much harder. Worthwhile if you're willing, but it will take putting in the time...


--Donnie

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My Blog

We also have a great resource for DA locally in Peter Krause. He is one of the experts in the subject and is willing to talk to anyone about it.

He and I have spent a few hours over dinners and such and there is so much in the data that can be used. He also warns though that somethings can be micro-managed and there isn't a return in the effort put into it.

Donnie does have a great idea though. If someone is co-driving a car at event then having two people that can compare data to is very valuable. You can also compare vehicle to vehicle and see where each driver and car has their strengths and weaknesses.

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Marty Howard
2011 NASA SE Factory Five Challenge Champion
Track Events Logistics Coordinator - TZC/THSCC
2007 Factory Five Challenge Car.
http://www.mh-motorsports.com

+1. Totally agree.

That is why Dave is so good at what he does. He practices, even when he can't drive the car. One thing that stuck with me from the Extreme School was said by Tim Aro---basically, "why don't you practice autocross like any other sport?" His statement was in the context of visulaization, but this (DA review with video) is simply a concrete form of visualization...

If you want to become better, you have to practice, right? And review your performance, take notes to figure out where to improve? Sounds (sadly) like me and my other star-crossed love affair with golf. Want to be good--get the handicap under 10? 5? Practice. practice. practice some more. hours of repetition, "grooving the swing" practicing finesse shots, putts...Then practicing game management, mental management etc.

I like the idea of DA with video integration. I am very interested in seeing Marty's stuff, having been exposed to the DL-1 at the Extreme School. Now I have to decide between this and a new set of golf clubs!

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Steve Carter
1972 Datsun 240Z-- resto pics at http://picasaweb.google.com/srcartermd
2007 GPW Honda S2000-- STR 86

If I continue to finish in the bottom half of BS at Nationals, who knows, I might buy your old clubs from you.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

Karl,

Did Dave indicate how the video helps? Jinx Jordan said that he finds that video is the biggest help also.

Donnie,

For a formula car is the DL1 with Race-tech's video system still the best "low cost" ($2k) system? The new ChaseCam DIVA looks good but I would be stuck with just one sensor input (probably rpm) and no potential to add others like throttle position or steering angle. Let alone all the other stuff that real race car engineers like to analyze.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

I honestly don't know. I haven't looked at any of the video integrated systems in a few years. I have an AiM David, which sucks. But it's the old one. Supposedly the new one is better, but it's bigger $$$. I've also got a license for that TrackVision software to post process it, but that sucks, too.

Honestly, I haven't done any serious looking at data in a couple years. I've only done like 8 races in the last two years, and almost all those were at VIR or CMP where the data wouldn't help me as much anyway. *sigh* The kids are taking over...


--Donnie

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My Blog

Car positioning. That can be a little tricky to spot with just a data trace, no matter how clever the software. He also talked about the ability to overlay videos on top of each other to gauge smoothness and earliness of inputs.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

Rodney sorry for being a little late to this discussion.

I've a Traqmate (bought Karl's). I agree and disagree with the need to spend hours analyzing the data. You can BUT you can also get very useful information in about 5 minutes (or less) when viewing data. If you call up the braking/ accel track map you can INSTANTLY see where you are coasting instead of accelerating. Call up the friction circle and you can see first, if you are using the maximum grip of your tires equally (left and right loading the same) and if you are using it in corners (how far out on the circle you are. Those are as simple as clicking on those displays under setup. Easy.

You can spend as much time as you want analyzing the data. Even a short review will be worthwile.


I think a good decision point is what are the folks in our area using? I believe the majority are indeed using Traqmate. why is that important? Because, as others have said, you can easily share data. You can look at a file from Jason and compare it to one of your runs. I have data from Randy Pobst in an E36 and its quite interesting to compare it to me in my CRX. A hint, he's FASTER!

I used to think that you should wait to get data until you are an advanced driver. But I think that thinking was/ is wrong. Get it as soon as you can afford it. by using the data you can see what is working well and what needs to be tweaked.

I'm not as familiar with all the different systems as Peter Krause is but I can say that the Traqmate unit is quite easy to use. In fact I'd suggest taking it for a "test drive". Go to their web page, download the software and a sample file. You can then see how it all works.

If you are in the blue or Red group we will probably spend some time during one of the class room sessions talking about data acq and, since I use the Traqmate system it will be the one we look at.

Ron