THSCC Forums

Azenis cheater tires!

Here’s the scenario:

I’ve got this “friend” that is thinking about running in STX later this year in an all-wheel-drive turbo powered 4-cylinder ~3000lb car American/Japanese “hybrid”. He is trying to decide what size tires to run with the usual factors of overall handling, acceleration and price running the show. All the courses will be local relatively slow slippery surfaces. He has pretty much decided on a combination of Azenis and Kosei’s but can’t decide on what size.

The options look like this:

215/45-16 Azenis + 16x7.5” Kosei K1
- cheapest, lightest overall package by a hair, best acceleration (smaller diameter than stock tires), potentially the worst overall grip?

225/45-17 Azenis + 17x8” Kosei K1 TS
- ~$275 more than the 16” combo, lighter wheels but heavier tires, about the same diameter as stock tires, better grip than the 16” combo?

245/45-17 Azenis + 17x8” Kosei K1 TS
- about the same price as the other 17” combo, lighter wheels but heavier tires still, about 1” taller diameter than stock tires (turbo spool issues?), potentially the best overall grip?

The question becomes is this: for small, relatively slow slippery surfaces, do the 17” combos extra grip outweigh the slight acceleration advantage of the 16” combo? If so, it is worth it to take it one step further and go with the 245’s and fight potential fitment issues? Or does the 16” combo provide the potential to keep the turbo spooled thus outweighing its possible grip disadvantage?

Don’t you hate these questions? I know my “friend” sure does…

It seems like there was a thread like this a while ago but I can’t seem to find it.

Jim

I would say the 16's would be best for all the issues you stated. Lowest wieght, smallest diameter, bast gearing. I think that outweighs the marginal diff of 10mm of tread, especially on our sites surfaces.

Also there is the whole issue of rotational mass. Even if the 17" rim weighed the same as the 16" rim, it would act as if it was heavier. Because the wieght is located further out from the center of the rim on the 17".

And finally costs, unless your "friend" is independantly wealthy then both the 16 rims and tires will cost less too.

Just my .02$

Is your (fingerquote) friend concerned about acceleration off boost? The lighter, smaller circumference package might be the way to go.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

What is the top speed in 2nd gear?

Is this an Eclipse/Talon?

Most importantly, is the car white? If so, then you should really stick with all season radials, they are best on white cars.

If you can hit 60 mph in 2nd gear with the short tires, then run the short tires.

Scott

I don't have a turbo, and I don't lack for torque, so keep that in mind. But - I used the Azenis size 215/45/16 the 1st half of 2003 & 225/45/17 the 2nd half of 2003. The width & grip difference isn't really that much (and I rolled the fenders for those 225's! ), but the gearing difference is big. With the shorter/lighter wheels & tires the car would rocket out of corners and steer really quick - but I had to go to 3rd gear a LOT. With the bigger wheels/tires, there was maybe a little more grip (I couldn't really tell you) and 3rd gear wasn't needed as much, but the car felt "bigger" in transitions.

I couldn't really recommend a size, I just think you go with what you prefer at the time & deal with it. I didn't see the different sizes make that much difference in my results, I just had to drive the car differently with each one to be fast. For local-only events though, you might want to consider the 205/55/16, which is what I'm going to be using for a while this year (they came with the silver RS). It's a lot cheaper than the other options, and with a good driver in the car they won't be a handicap. I also used these in 2002 - the freshman year, and did pretty well in Peter's car on them once last year. If you're going from a shorter sidewall, you'll be able to feel the 205 flex a little more, but it's not bad.

Good luck.

My “friend” might admit to it being a 1st-gen DSM but that's about it. Well, he might admit to the color too but white is probably too strong a word.

He is definitely concerned about off-boost acceleration. Lets face it, it’s no turbo Miata. Er, um, not that he has ever driven one of those…

I’ve, dang, I mean he’s been leaning towards the 16” combo but it’s one of those stupid questions that keeps him up at nights. Well, that and the cats that keep trying to sleep on his head. Hey! Speaking of cats! Did I ever tell you… Hmmmm, never mind…

Anyway, he won’t be running this car at any Tarheel events but it is rumored that he might run it at some Triad events to hassle a certain WRX-drivin’ president just for grins. Those are strictly rumors, though. The guy is pretty hard to pin down and he keeps changing cars so I never know what he might be doing every time I talk to him. I hate guys like that…

I’m pretty sure the car can hit near 60mph with the shorter 16” combo but I’d have to verify that. With the small sites he’s going to be dealing with, 55mph might even be good enough.

Thanks for the thoughts guys and I’ll be sure and relay everything to him the next time I see him.

Jim

Jim,

I have ran both 16" and 17" wheels on my 1G. I didnt really notice a HUGE difference one way or the other. WRT wheel weight, Im probably not the one to ask, seeing as I opted for the 24 lb, fat boy 17x9 Mustang rims. I guess we will see if the extra rubber will pay off this weekend or not.

The 17's will keep the revs down a hair, which on 1G's is a good thing because the turbo isnt real efficient in the upper RPMs and lower RPM's help avoid the dreaded 1G steering cutout issue. I know at the "Speed Thrills" autox last year I clocked in around 58 mph and was nowhere near the rev limiter. This was on 245/45/16's

Of course, YMMV. I know your "friend" is a MUCH better driver than me. So I just may not have noticed a difference.

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

You should get some Harley stickers for that thing!



That's not true at all.

Actually, from what I hear, he mainly gets by on his early childhood experiences and low center of gravity. But you didn't hear that from me...

Thanks for your input.

Jim

Also consider that this friend's car's former owner has a set of pristine 3G RX-7 rims that formerly belonged to the author of this post.

The PO might be willing to sell them at a competetive price, which might offset the purchase of stickier cheater tires.

The somewhat brittle nature of the RX-7 rim has been proven a couple of times by Mr. Holton, however.

_________________
Tom Freeman
'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
Team Silver Bullets '91 240SX

My Dad always told me I could break an anvil with a rubber mallet. So YMMV WRT the 3rd gen RX7 wheels.


Ryan

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Yea, I wasn't going to bother with the RX7 wheels. I'm not looking to take chances like that just to save a few bucks. You guys aren't the only ones I've heard of having problems with them under heavy use.

Jim