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So there's definitely something funky about my brake pedal on the Civic and I think it's time for a fluid change. The pedal went halfway to the floor before tightening up during my first run at the Greenville event and the pivots at the last event really made braking a guessing game in Danville.

My question is, with all the modern ABS technology (that I know very little about) can I still do an old-school pump & hold style bleed like I would do on the clutch after replacing either cylinder?

I'm putting new pads on tomorrow so I may as well kill two birds with one stone...

thanks!

Absolutely. It's no different now than it was 30 years ago in that regard. However, if air has been introduced into the system "up top", i.e. before the ABS controller, then you would possibly have to cycle the controller to get all the air out of the lines however. Just make sure to keep the reservoir topped up enough while bleeding so that doesn't happen.

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

I appreciate the feedback Chuck. I think I'll knock it out with a buddy tomorrow and see if it improves.

And, don't forget to use the turkey baster to remove as much fluid as possible from the reservoir prior to starting. It will save you time and brake fluid.

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No, you're a towel!

Even better than the turkey baster to remove fluid - the turkey marination syringe. Just be careful with the needles as they are fairly sharp.

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Tom Freeman
'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
Team Silver Bullets '91 240SX

Thanks for the advice on the old fluid.

Why did I ever pay someone to do this? It was strange to find out that the best way to bleed is starting at the FL wheel and go clockwise. Weird but it had something to do with the ABS system. All the gunky fluid comes out the first caliper and the rest is clockwork...

Hmmm, the order by which you bleed brakes is a long debated thing....in the Subaru world, people draw knives when you talk about the order you bleed in because the FSM has you do it in a weird diagonal order: FR, RL, FL,RR (where L is driver side and R is pass side). This was for the GD chassis. Now the GR/GH chassis FSM says 'go from farthest to closest'.

Anyway, point is that is really probably doesn't matter.

And in reference to getting the gunk out of the closest corner, I'd say most of the gunk is in the lines/caliper. When you bleed corner 1, fluid is not drawn out of the paths in corner 2,3, and 4....it's drawn from the MC reservoir.

In the end bleeding your brakes in the 'wrong' way is probably better than not bleeding your brakes period like most people on the road .....this is assuming there truely is a 'wrong' way .

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2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

I've bled brakes since the mid-70s, and I've never found that the common-knowledge-wife's-tale-specified-order to make any difference at all. In many systems, the front will push a lot more fluid per pedal stroke plus the LF is closet to the reservoir, so it makes some logical sense to start there. From a pure engineering standpoint, I doubt there is a rigorous case to be made for some specific order assuming a typical system. I'd like to see the engineering analysis that proves order is important.

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Yep, this ^^^^ .

Apparently a common 'explanation' is to reduce possibly cross contamination between lines and/or to minimize the introduction of air in the lines....makes no sense at all.....NO ORDER should introduce air to the lines if done the proper way.

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

If the factory service manual for your car specifies an order, why wouldn't you do it that way? It's not like it's any more work to do so.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

My only 'justification' for doing it the "farthest to closest' method is that I use the rear brakes system to push most of the old fluid through (there's always _SOME_ contamination with old fluid if you don't introduce air), so that by the time I get to the fronts and have drained and refilled the MC a few times and I've got a higher probability of fresher fluid. maybe.

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Dustin Fredrickson
-- I'm a nobody --

I do farthest to closest more so I remember which one I've done already. I've bled plenty of cars this way with funky orders and never had a problem.

With my civic, I'd just put tubes on the bleeders so they go upward first (above the bleeder) into soda cans, crack them all open and let it chill like that while I do yardwork (topping up the reservoir ever 30 minutes or so)....gravity is your friend. Tap the calipers/brake cylinders with a mallet a few times and then close them.

My issue with fancy bleed orders is that it produces too many scare stories on the internet about bleeding brakes.

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

That's kinda how I see it, but I'm one of those guys that goes to Honda only to buy an oil filter.

That actually makes sense about the order not really mattering. I guess it makes sense to do the closest to the ABS first so the gunk in the reservoir doesn't have to travel all the way to the back of the car.

I figure the ABS didn't affect the fluid change because doesn't an ABS only inhibit the flow/pressure to the four paths individually when it's engaged therefore leaving a clear path for the old fluid to pass? Overthinking things again.. haha

Yeah, when bleeding a car , the ABS fluid is 'hidden' to the fluid you are bleeding. As in none of fluid in the ABS unit escapes unless the ABS pump is cycled. So if you go 10 years and never activate ABS and yet bleed your brakes yearly, then your fluid in the ABS side of the system is still the original, 10 year old fluid.

Granted on most new cars, there is an "ABS self check" that occurs after the car starts when being off for a while. I'd assume it recircs a bit of fluid but not a lot.

Some people say to avoid spending $$$ at the dealership to cycle the ABS pump (with early ABS systems, you could apply 12v to a circuit to force it to circulate....I'd be wary of that nowadays), that you can find a dirt road and lock up the wheels to force ABS to activate a couple times and then go bleed the system again.

YMMV

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

FWIW, I've not used the function, but in my Autoenginuity s/w with the "BMW expansion module" there is a function to perform an "ABS bleed" cycling. It is crazy stupid the amount of junk a modern (or even semi-modern) car has which can be controlled electronically, but at least this product allows one to control everything, set all the settings (like rain sensor module sensitivity for example), etc, w/o paying a dime to a dealer.

_________________
Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
2011 BMW M3 sedan slicktop 6MT
2007 BMW 328i wagon (slushbox for now)
1975 CanAm 125MX2