THSCC Forums

I want to max out my front camber using the stock camber bolts (measly -1.2 ish degrees....better than -0.16 degrees as it is stock). The crash bolts have markings on them as do the strut bodies so getting it even...or even enough is not too bad (I'm making a camber gauge to be sure). In doing so, obviously this gives the car some toe out....probably too much so I'd like to readjust this to approximately 0 (maybe just a hair of toe out).

I've read a few methods online. Some of which I did not like because they didn't seem accurate. Some of which didn't take into consideration thrust angle etc. The one method that had some merit (in my opinion) is setting a string on jack stands that is exactly the height of the wheels center cap. Then using known measurements for the front and rear track, you can set the line x mm and y mm away from the front and rear center caps such that you've established a parallel centerline from which you can make measurements from to the front edge and rear edge of the wheel and make the tierod adjustments accordingly (with the steering wheel perfectly straight forward and the car on flat ground...possibly on stacked sheet metal with grease between).

Has anyone done it this way and does anyone else have a better DIY method?

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2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

I do my own alignments and they turn out very well. I have actually checked the alignment with a machine at work and it was within 1/16 of what I measured with a tape.

Here is my process without the corner weight, ride height adjustments and chasing the numbers around.

First off, the work surface needs to be level. Level to 1/8in a min on all corners. Use a long tube filled with water and jackstands to find a level spot. I use a few small metal plates to shim it out as needed.

Next, tire pressures need to be set at hot temps. I use 38psi on all corners.

Now, since you are wanting max camber at your current static ride height, I would experiment with max camber at each wheel. If you are lucky, both wheels will have max camber with the centric at its max. BTW, generally the leading centric dials camber while the trailing adjust caster. Note max camber and set each wheel equal.

So now that you have max camber, your tires will show significant toe in.

Get in the car and roll it forward and backward 6-12in. This is done to make sure the tires and suspension have settled out from the adjustment. Once the camber settings are where you like them, you can proceed to setting toe. BTW, I use a bubble level and ruler to measure camber. Set level plum w/ ground at the wheel centerline. Measure top and bottom gap. deg=atan((top-bot)/rim dia)

Lets see...

Find out if the track is the same front to rear. On my Jeep this is true but on the Miata the rear is wider.

If they are the same. Draw a string between two jack stands and set the distance between the center of the axle equal. The string should be at the axle height for best measurements.
If they are NOT the same, you will have to slowly adjust the string until the front and back edge of the rear wheel is equal distant from the string. This can be a pain to get setup but make small (very small) adjustments to the stands to get it just right.

I generally work to about 3in gap since it works well with my limited work space.

Make sure the steering wheel is centered. Measure the gap between the string and the front / back of the front wheel. (This assumes the rear wheel is true to the chassis. If not, let me know and I can add the procedure to get this correct. If not, the thrust angle will not be near zero. For HP challenged cars, you want this zero.)
Adjust the tie rod until it is even. Make sure to roll the car forward and backwards after making the adjustment. Also, check to make sure the steering wheel is still centered. Adjust and reset tie rod until the front / back string gap is equal.

From there take a set of toe plates and place them along the front wheels. You will use the toe plates to set the right front wheel. Measure front/back across the toe plates. Adjust RF tie rod until it is exactly the same. Don't forget to roll the car and check wheel center.

That's it. Double check the measurements and don't forget to tighten everything back down. Make sure not to turn the tie rod ends in the process. I ended up marking the flats with a marker to help keep track of orientation.

Let me know if you have any questions. Tried to keep it brief and to the point. If you are around the Mooresville area feel free to stop by and I can help you through the process.

Cheers!
Scott

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THSCC Timing & Scoring

Hi Scott....thanks for the response. Yes this is very similar to the procedure I found that I thought had the most merit.

If I go from 0 camber to -1.1 (or negative anything), won't the toe because toe out? My tie rods attach to the knuckle in the front...anyway:

In my case, the front and rear track is not the same:

f/r = 58.9"/59.3"

So to me, I would not want to assume my rear wheels are perfectly 0 toe so I would get my string such that the string is half the difference (ie 0.2") closer to the rear wheel center than the front wheel center. Then you can do the measuring to the front and rear edge of the wheel as you outlined.

Few questions, you say:



A: are each of these paragraphs separate procedures? They seem the same to me...maybe I'm missing something.
B: what are toe plates? Just sheets of sheet metal with oil/grease between them that will allow the wheel to rotate while loaded?

Again, thanks for the response.


EDIT: My garage (at least my side) is perfectly level transversely but longitudinally slopes slightly towards the outside. This should not affect anything relating to camber/toe measurements correct? The important part is the left and right sides of the car are level, no?

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

Hey James,

The method works great and is really depends on how well you measure to get good #'s from it.

Lets see. About camber and toe direction... On the Miata, the tie rods are towards the front on the upright. So as I increase the length of the lower control arm to gain camber the front remains a fixed length and will be slightly shorter than the back. If your car adjust toe by the play between the strut bolts and upright then I would think it would lean towards toe out since you are making the center shorter. Depends on application.

As for the strings, that is a good method as well since you know the track differences. When I string the Miata, the center gap difference is always dead on so I think you would be ok. In my case, I generally run the rear with 0 toe. Mazda has reference points on the chassis to set the rear wheel parallel with the rear subframe. Hopefully the subframe is true to the front but there are ways to check that as well.

For A,B ?. Sorry, long day yesterday and my post was a little confusing.

Once you have the string set, adjust the left front wheel to have zero toe based on the string as a reference. At the same time, make sure the steering wheel is pointed straight ahead so that the car tracks straight when the wheel is centered. (My ocd kicks in if my wheel isn't perfect)

Then using the left front wheel as a reference, adjust the right front wheel using toe plates. Again, checking to make sure the wheel is straight.

After every adjustment and before each measurement, roll the car forward and back to the same spot to settle the suspension.

An example of toe plates are here: http://www.saferacer.com/longacre-toe-p ... ductid=486

I made some out of a section of aluminum I found at Lowes and they work great. If I get a chance to take a picture I will post it for you.

If the work space is level across the car then you will be OK for setting toe. The absolute measurements for camber will be a little lower on the front and higher on the rear if the slope of the floor is lower at the back of the car. Depends on how much slope.

Once you give it a try you will see how it comes together. Overall it is fairly simple but a little tedious at times. Best of luck and hopefully this helps out!

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THSCC Timing & Scoring

I use the string method and quickly scanned the posts above. I see one difference that I use. I don't worry about front/rear track width and trying to use those values to make sure my two strings are parallel to each other. I use a different method to ensure they are parallel.

So I don't hang the strings from jack stands directly. What I do instead is hang two rods (one in front and one in the rear) on jack stands. Then I hang the strings from those rods. The two rods have a notch near each end that the string lies in. These notches were cut at the same time on both rods so the distance between notches is exactly the same for the two rods. I use inexpensive metal conduit pipe for my rods.

So instead of trying to figure out how far out from each wheel center the string should be, I just ensure the left and right values (distance from wheel center to string) are equal. Front values may be different than rear values depending up front rear track and other factors. Then you know the two strings are parallel to each other, parallel to the center line of the car (assuming your suspension and suspension mounts are symmetrical) and equidistant from the center line of the car.

Of course it is a total pain in the ass to make sure you don't bump any of this at any point.

_________________
Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Hi Scott,

I now see my confusion. So you use the parallel string method to set one (while the wheel is perfectly straight) and then the toe plates to set the other side using the first side as a reference? Is this correct?

Is there any reason not to just use the parallel string method on the other side as well?

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

James,

That is correct. That is what I do.

You could use the parallel string method as Richard does. It will give the same result. Perhaps less componding errors which would be a good thing.

In general, I only pull out the strings at the beginning of the year or if I make a major change to ride height which will require scaling and aligning the car again.

If I want to make a small toe change, I use the toe plates since it will take 5minutes. Set the plates and make even turns on the tie rods until I get the desired setting.

In your case, since the alignment is probably pretty close (assuming it was recently aligned) toe plates might be all you really need. My original post is the general process assuming everything needs to be adjusted after a major suspension change, ect.

Feel free to give me a call if you have any questions along the way. PM me for my house #.

Scott

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THSCC Timing & Scoring

Scott,

I see why we have different ideas of how camber affects toe. On my car's strut suspension, the crash bolts adjust camber more negatively by pulling the top of the knuckle inward (towards engine) and hence toe out. On the Miata, you increase negative camber by pushing the bottom of the knuckle outward and hence toe in. Anyway, I had to think about it and visualize it to make sense of it .

Anyway, I just got done playing with a level and a small ruler with 1/32" marks to get camber using the arctan formula. Well my level sucks. When the bubble is between the lines there is still probably 1mm of gap on the right and left of the bubble. It is not a very accurate level (its that black and decker one that was on TV with the sliding inserts....my wifes friend got it for me). I have smaller levels such that there isn't ANY space between the edges of the bubble and the lines so is is much more accurate .

Time to go to Lowes for a new one .

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

For toe, I use a set of Longacre toe plates. Quick and easy. Not too expensive.

they normally live at other people's homes, but I have them right now.

Me too, and I was going to post about my toe plates, but you can't really do much about thrust angle at home without the string method. However I have used a 8' straightedge I own placed against the rear wheel to adjust thrust angle. Eyeballed/measured the gap at the front tire. Quick and dirty but close enough for me. Really only worked well on cars with a narrower rear track than front or when dialing in a bunch of rear toe out.

Other than thrust angle though, I use toe plates and a cheap camber gauge. Like others have mentioned, my DIY measurements are usually within the "error bars" of suspension flex when I do go get a real alignment, which has been less and less these days.

Someone has gotta be able to come up with a simple and cheap jig using a laser pointer and white boards to do this kind of measurement easily at home. I think I did a string alignment once or twice and gave up on them, they are truly IMO a pain in the butt.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

All my autocross cars have had only DIY alignments with the "string" version being the most "sophisticated". Lots of good suggestions in the previous posts. One more that I don't think anyone mentioned for toe is to mark a line on a smooth portion of the tread on both tires at the highest point on the tires that will allow side to side tape measure access with the mark in "front" and also with the car rolled so that the mark is in "back". Works best with cars with fairly high ground clearance and very little stuff hanging down. Requires an assistant OR good duct tape and clean tires to allow taping the free end of the tape to the tire. For many years that was my primary toe measurement system for front tires.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Good thread guys...I'm feeling more confident about this now .

I'm going to attempt to do the camber max out and readjust toe to 0 on Saturday....Triad autox on Sunday....let me hope I don't f it up. Anyway, even if I don't nail the toe, I'm ready for these tires to get used up anyway . Camber bolts have markings on them as well as the strut clevis so it should be decently easy to get it even side to side.

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B

Heck, that's easy. Just let Buckley co-drive with you again!

Jim

I just read (or at least skimmed) all the posts.

Regarding toe plates. Never used any. I just roll the car back and forth. For the formula car (more precision needed) I have leveling shims (i.e. pegboard squares) that pivot on themselves very well.

For stringing, for several of my cars, the front and rear outside of the tires measurements were the same, or VERY close. Therefore I literally could do quick checks by hooking a string over a tailpipe, and running the string against the "outside rear edge" of the rear tire at spindle height and pulling it tight all the way to the front tire's front outside edge or to a jack stand. Works great. If track is significantly different f/r tape a shim to the sidewall of the rear tire to keep the string parallel to the centerline of the car. Also, after you get accurate measurements you can remove the shims and compare to the "no shim" measurements.

Keep in mind with all string measurements that when you measure to a sidewall or rim of a relatively high profile tire that toe is, if I remember correctly, a tread measurement (i.e. outside diameter of the tire). Not a big deal but something to keep in mind if you are anal enough to think you or your tires will actually notice the slight difference in toe.

The string looped around a tailpipe and rear tire method is particularly useful if you are making toe adjustments at a test and tune, etc. and want to make sure you moved things in the intended direction.

Also, for my 5.0 Mustang I would change from toe in to toe out at events when changing tires. For this I determined how much to turn the tie rods at home and then made the adjustments quickly at the event. The HARD part was keeping track of 1) did I actually do it to BOTH sides and 2) did I turn the tie rods in the correct direction, and 3) did I bring the string to check my results if I wasn't sure . . .

Dick (improvise when you have more time than money)

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Made a new toy today .

$35 for digital level (accurate to .1 deg) at Sears
$7 for 3/4" tubing at Slowes
$2 hardware

Took 15 minutes to put together. The two bolts stick out within .1 mm of one another (had to grind one a hair). This way if the ground is not perfectly level where the tire is resting, you can zero it out relative to the ground and then measure to the ground.

_________________
2011/2012 Autox VP
2013/2014.5 President
2013 Top Gun

2015 Fit

22R-EC => 4G63 => D16Y7 + D16Y8 => EJ255 + K24Z2 => K20Z3 + K24Z2 => K24Z2 + M54 => L15B