THSCC Forums

i've heard differing opinions on which better. i tend to cross over but i'm not sure if that is best, it's just what i do while driving around town, so it is what i'm most familiar with. what is your method and why?

shuffle stear: feed the wheel through your hands into and out of turns. hands don't cross up at all.

crossing over hands: just like it sounds...

grip and go: hands at like 10 and 2 (o'clock) or maybe 11 and 1...into and out of turns you just never let go.

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05 MCS

Use what works best for each situation...

3 & 9 works for me for very slight maneuvers, but my steering rack is very slow. so for larger turns, I shuffle & just focus on being smooth with the steering wheel. for the million-cone slaloms we had this past weekend (after you passed by the bus), I used one hand to steer one way & the other hand to steer the other way. for sweepers I usually move my hands into a position so that my hands are around 3 & 9 even though the steering wheel is turned (meaning, my hands aren't at the steering wheel's 3&9 position). just provides the best "feel" for me to control the drift. as I come out of the sweeper, I move my hands back to the steering wheel's 3&9 and get ready for what's next.

I tried to follow a set of rules for steering until I took the autox school last Fall, and watched Tom Hoppe's hands in the video I had shot. that's when I realized there are no rules.

Good luck!

I tend to do all three with probably less "cross over" style than the other two. I use "grip and go" as much as possible, but for example in longer sweepers, I may reposition my hands to something like a 3&9 position in mid-turn for better control.

Frankly I end up not thinking about it a great deal and not until I review my video do I really see what I am doing.

Anyhow, that is my 2 cents.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Shuffle Steer. It is, without a doubt, the fastest way to manage the steering inputs to your car.

You might rightly ask how I can be so sure. Years ago when Car Guys still ran the slide car at track events I got a turn at it. My buddy from Chicago drove it before I did. He'd let the wheel slide through his hands, catch it, cross hands, whatever he could manage. He had been driving on track A LOT longer than me. He managed 1.5 circles with the car set for extreme oversteer.

I tried what they talked about in class room: shuffle steer. I did 3 circles and would have just kept going but they raised the rear completely of the ground and I spun.

From that point on I use shuffle steer ALWAYS. Autocross, track driving, daily driving. No better way.

Ron

The argument against shuffle steer is that you don't know which way to point the wheels straight. Some would say the white tape is what tells them this.

However, the counter-argument to the white tape is:
Do you have time to look for a piece of tape when you are "in trouble" and need to correct for oversteer?

My background is primarily in RWD cars. The oversteer condition is where most would say the fixed hands works best. Just unwind the wheel a little and modulate throttle appropriately to correct.

If you are doing "shifty" -- where is straight?
How much steering input do you modify to correct?

A decent contigent I know of has hardened on fixed position for at least track driving for this reason, because a BMW instructor experienced a situation where he "lost" his wheel attitude and ended up totalling his car as a result. I want to say it is ?Richard Johns? (drives a E30 M3 now)?

In autocross, I find too many situations where I run out of "turn", I think I end up feeding the wheel at that point. Maybe if I focus on fixed hands, I would be smoother.

I can't remember what Watts says about the two methods, I know he mentions both of them (Zaccone? and something else) -- can't remember if there was a preferred method or justification for one over the other.

I guess you use what is best for the situation, the car, and what works best for you...

Straight doesn't matter if you're in a corner, at least I don't think it does. I try and get the front wheels pointed in whatever direction gets me to, or close to, the place I want to be. I guess I just do it by feel.

When it becomes such a nightmare that I don't know where my hands are in relation to the front wheels, chances are better than even that the lap/run is trash anyway, and you might as well put both feet in and get it next time, rather than being a hero.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

In the Skip Barber school they tell you to never EVER cross over and to never shoffle steer. That said, they are prepping you for formula car driving, and you're guaranteed to never *need* to shuffle steer (due to the tiight steering box). I've found that I'm smoother and feel better if I avoid shuffle steering in the Spyder and Miata both, but I think their steering boxes are generally "tight enough" for what we're doing. Having driven other cars, though, I can undderstand the occasional need for a shuffle.

I can not see any need to cross your hands over.


--Donnie

this is great stuff...thanks for the replies...i think i'm going to go with the theory that "grip and go" is the best for most everything except turn arounds, then i'll shuffle...we'll see how it goes.

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05 MCS

...one hand at the top of the wheel. The other has to be free to keep my Pabst from sloshing around...

What is the name of that device that clamps onto your wheel that looks like a door knob? You know that one that allows you to just grip the knob and spin the wheel?

I am suprised nobody has suggested that yet.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Richard - I believe it's a "necker-knob". I think I'll add a necker-knob to the Miata...and that way I'll have a free hand for my 40 of King Cobra.

In my old Eclipse, I had to shuffle steer. Grip and go would get my hands crossed up because of the slow steering.

One thing we haven't brough up is seating position and it's relation to your steering inputs. Per our classroom instructor at Roebling, in proper "race driving" seating position, you're rather close to the wheel, with elbows bent nearly 90deg. This allows you more feel and control of the wheel, as well as giving you plenty of leverage if you need it.

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Tom Freeman
'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
Team Silver Bullets '91 240SX

I think the grip and go has at least one advantage.

If you try to keep your hands on the wheel in the same position it is a good feedback device. If you always have to move your hands then you steering too much which means you are making the car work to hard.

The only exception to this is for turnarounds and really tight slaloms. Then you just have to move your hands as quickly as possible. Then I'm like whatever works and keeps you in control of the car.

The whatever works goes for seating position in my mind as well. The advice of getting up really close to the wheel doesn't apply as much to modern cars with good power steering. Being comfortable and as secure in the seat as possible is more important that being close to the wheel.

Shawn

The muscle groups that come into play when your arms are extended are slightly different from those when you are closer to a 90 deg bend. Most people have finer control as well as strength in the elbows-bent position. While strength in a 60-second-power-steering-boosted run isn't too important, ability to make smoother finer adjustments is an advantage.

Having said that, I think whatever you are comfortable with in daily driving is going to be pretty close to right for you at an event.

What does that mean? What did you notice in that video?

I do a little bit of everything based on the situation. I will *try* to stay at 9 and 3, unless I need to move and then I *try* to shuffle steer.

-Tom

You were steering with your knees while drinking coffee and applying makeup.

Duh.