Need a new race car

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Donnie Barnes wrote:

MikeWhitney wrote:

BMWCCA IP

Plenty of good cheap used cars out there, well known package to get them under 2:10s consistently. Just check out any VIR race results -- here's one with the top 5 or so finishers all running 2:07. And as was mentioned, Denis' car does 2:06's

http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/_Upload ... evised.pdf

There's not a lot of heavy work done to these cars to get them this fast. Bottom ends are stock but as Dustin mentioned there's work on the engine management, and cams, to get the wHP numbers up there.

I'd imagine that a sorted IP car is going to get better mpg and might be more reliable than a Vette.

Yeah, I already checked out those results and have been conversing with Brian Watts today a LOT. An IP type car is definitely where I'm leaning right now. As you said, they're already sub-2:10 cars and an IP legal car has a LOT of room to remove weight for ITE. Brian Marks' car looks pretty good currently, but I'm still poking around a bit. It's got a S50B32 in it with some updates and with full AC and a good bit of interior it's run a 2:09 with James Clay behind the wheel. Wouldn't be hard to get it lighter and make it handle a little better (better shocks, springs, and bushings, at least).

Only problem with that car is it looks too pretty to turn into a real race car. Almost.

Marty, that 996 and the e36 both look interesting, but being on the west coast is kind of a downer. *sigh*

--Donnie

Just remember that Brian's car has the Euro 3.0 motor in it, which isn't exactly common in the US. IMO for an endurance car I think you'd be better off sticking with an S52 simply because there will be plenty of people who know them, spares, parts from bimmerworld overnight, etc.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:06 am

MikeWhitney wrote:

Just remember that Brian's car has the Euro 3.0 motor in it, which isn't exactly common in the US. IMO for an endurance car I think you'd be better off sticking with an S52 simply because there will be plenty of people who know them, spares, parts from bimmerworld overnight, etc.

I'd follow that thought up with some investigation as Bimmerworld stocks lots of parts for these Euro motors I believe. They have done a number of conversions by importing them. I think it is a Euro 3.2L btw which is essentially almost equal in output to the E46 M3. It has multiple throttle bodies but unlike the E46, it uses a mechanical connection (throttle cable).

I'm curious which would be more reliable: an S52 modified with many non-factory stuff to reach 275whp or a factory motor with such power. I truly don't have an answer other than my gut answer from modifying cars in my past (and the gut is screaming factory).

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:07 am

A Cadillac CTS-V. More power than you need, easy egress, decent fuel mileage and you could probably leave the ac and stereo in and still lay a smackdown on the BMW's <lol>

clinehall · **Posted:** Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:21 am

how am I supposed to get any work done with all this stuff to read?

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

MikeWhitney wrote:

Just remember that Brian's car has the Euro 3.0 motor in it, which isn't exactly common in the US. IMO for an endurance car I think you'd be better off sticking with an S52 simply because there will be plenty of people who know them, spares, parts from bimmerworld overnight, etc.

I'd follow that thought up with some investigation as Bimmerworld stocks lots of parts for these Euro motors I believe. They have done a number of conversions by importing them. I think it is a Euro 3.2L btw which is essentially almost equal in output to the E46 M3. It has multiple throttle bodies but unlike the E46, it uses a mechanical connection (throttle cable).

I'm curious which would be more reliable: an S52 modified with many non-factory stuff to reach 275whp or a factory motor with such power. I truly don't have an answer other than my gut answer from modifying cars in my past (and the gut is screaming factory).

Rough numbers from memory:

US 3.0 = S50B30US = 240c(rank)hp, <240tq; tens of thousands in the US
US 3.2 = S52 = 240chp, 240tq; tens of thousands in the US
Euro 3.0 = S50B30 = 286chp; import-only, rare compared to production motors
Euro 3.2 = S50B32 = 321chp; import-only, rare compared to production motors

280chp S52 is made by swapping intake manifold (M50), exhaust, and custom software. I dunno if it's any more or less reliable than a euro motor but it certainly is more common. Destroy the head? Call one of a dozen shops within 2 hours of VIR for a replacement.

Read the description of the base Euro motor and you can start seeing why this would be a bad (IMO) idea for an endurance motor if you expect short downtime for any engine related repairs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M50 wrote:

The S50B30 was a special sports-oriented 3.0 L version, which powered the RoW spec E36 M3. Power is 286 hp (210 kW). The S50B30 has a bore of 86 mm and a stroke of 85.8 mm, with a total displacement of 2990 cc. The engine has a maximum permissible speed of 7280 rpm +/-80, and a permissible constant speed of 7000 rpm. It used an ITB intake system with an oversized MAF and a tubular exhaust manifold. The cylinder head was unique and the VANOS system was more advanced than the one used on normal M50s.

Marty Howard · **Posted:** Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:58 am

If you can find a car that's roughly 4+ seconds a lap faster than the 4/6 cylinder cars and still run 2 hours per fill up it would be worth it in time saved.

Keith Vail · **Posted:** Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:13 pm

jimpastorius wrote:

A Cadillac CTS-V. More power than you need, easy egress, decent fuel mileage and you could probably leave the ac and stereo in and still lay a smackdown on the BMW's <lol>

Bill Black had his there this year. It lasted all of 61 laps. :lol:

But it was stupid fast until it broke.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:06 pm

Marty Howard wrote:

If you can find a car that's roughly 4+ seconds a lap faster than the 4/6 cylinder cars and still run 2 hours per fill up it would be worth it in time saved.

That's just it, though. Best I can figure, the V8's seem to be LESS than 3/4's the mileage we can get from most other solutions. That puts them well under two hours and probably not even quite an hour and a half.

Mike's got a good point on parts availability, but I'm looking into that one.

--Donnie

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Donnie Barnes wrote:

Mike's got a good point on parts availability, but I'm looking into that one.

--Donnie

Ask the following 3 questions comparing US versus Euro motors. I'm curious what the answers are:

- How much does a spare head cost? How many available and where can I get one?
- What do I need if I have a Vanos failure? Where can I get it?
- What do I need to do a valve adjustment? Are the parts available in the US and how much are they?

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:30 pm

I'm on it like a bonnet in quakerville.

--Donnie

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

Keith Vail wrote:

jimpastorius wrote:

A Cadillac CTS-V. More power than you need, easy egress, decent fuel mileage and you could probably leave the ac and stereo in and still lay a smackdown on the BMW's <lol>

Bill Black had his there this year. It lasted all of 61 laps. :lol:

But it was stupid fast until it broke.

my buddy in DC has a 1st gen cts-v, i rode in it at summit point this summer. with mild suspenson upgrades, r-comps, and track pads it was quite impressive, handling wasn't up to bmw or corvette standards but a helluva lot better than v8 mustangs and the like. transmssion/shifter is solid but clunky. the brakes were terrific, hauled it down from 140+ mph on the main straight lap after lap with no fade (in a 25 minute hpde session). take some weight out and it has potental.

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:32 pm

Donnie Barnes wrote:

That's just it, though. Best I can figure, the V8's seem to be LESS than 3/4's the mileage we can get from most other solutions. That puts them well under two hours and probably not even quite an hour and a half.

Even with the lower RPMs a V8 should be turning compared to a 4 or a 6? Perhaps you could short shift a bit during long stints? Just thinking out loud here.

I keep coming back to a 911 of some sort. You like Porsches, and Leh is mostly driving Porsches lately, correct?

There's a Lotus Exige Cup 255 for sale in the current issue of SportsCar. It's in Danville. I don't know anything about Loti, though, so I'm unsure what "Cup 255" means.

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:55 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

- How much does a spare head cost? How many available and where can I get one?

Find the first unlocked 99+ GM truck, there will likely be 5 or 6 in the parking lot of whatever race you're attending. Oh wait, you're just talking about BMW heads, aren't you? :lol:

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:27 pm

Donnie Barnes wrote:

Marty Howard wrote:

If you can find a car that's roughly 4+ seconds a lap faster than the 4/6 cylinder cars and still run 2 hours per fill up it would be worth it in time saved.

That's just it, though. Best I can figure, the V8's seem to be LESS than 3/4's the mileage we can get from most other solutions. That puts them well under two hours and probably not even quite an hour and a half.

Mike's got a good point on parts availability, but I'm looking into that one.

--Donnie

Is there a restriction on fuel cell size?

Is there a restriction on ways to fill the fuel cell? Doing it with NASCAR style cans would allow it to be done very rapidly.

Keith Vail · **Posted:** Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:40 pm

scottjohnson wrote:

Is there a restriction on fuel cell size?

Is there a restriction on ways to fill the fuel cell? Doing it with NASCAR style cans would allow it to be done very rapidly.

I believe 25 gallon is the maximum size fuel cell you can use, at least it is for IT. Many teams use Nascar style dry break dump cans. I know a team that we ran next to last year could fill their 25 gallon cell with 2 dump cans in under 1 minute. Even if you are done fueling, with the driver back in the car and set to go you must be in your pit box for 2 minutes every time you fuel the car.

THSCC Forums

Need a new race car

Who is online