Need a new race car

steve remchak · **Posted:** Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:35 pm

"without shit hitting", buy two Donnie. i believe you have stumbled across your 13 Hour car.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:59 pm

Donnie,

Mid-engine sounds really good on top of the other advantages. Next best thing to a Sports Racer or formula car

Will the 25 gal. fuel cell mount close to the front/rear center of gravity to keep the balance stable through a fuel stint? If not, I assume it will be no worse than with other cars. Do any of the viable choices allow cockpit adjustable bars during a stint? I assume adjustable brake balance is practical if desired.

I hope the NSX idea pans out.

Dick

Keith Vail · **Posted:** Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:13 pm

Just to throw this out there. How about a Lexus IS300? It is a sedan body with double wishbone suspension. The engine is the bulletproof 2JZ engine. Basically a 3 Series BMW without struts. I would much rather see you running an NSX because they are cooler but the IS would be much cheaper to build and run I would imagine.

Pete Guthrie · **Posted:** Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:14 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFK8WsZ9 ... re=related

anything that sounds as cool as this thing, ought to be a great car. :D

v8 tatra sedan rally car. great sound! or. just get a subaru wrx sti.

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:26 pm

Keith Vail wrote:

Just to throw this out there. How about a Lexus IS300? It is a sedan body with double wishbone suspension. The engine is the bulletproof 2JZ engine. Basically a 3 Series BMW without struts.

Now that's a good idea. There was at least one team that used to run them in Grand-Am.

Marty Howard · **Posted:** Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:48 pm

Just had a thought. Why not go with something completely unexpected. But a VW TDI Cup car. While they can only do 2:12's, you'd only have to stop once the entire race.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:21 am

TDI Cup is FWD. Ugh.

But the IS300 idea has merit. One to consider for sure. Not sure one would fit in the trailer, though. Did I mention we need to be under 53" in height, too? It's also gonna be easier to find bolt-on go-fast stuff for an NSX than an IS300. But still one to think about.

--Donnie

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Donnie Barnes wrote:

The big thing here is that the suspension is already double wishbone. A lot of the JDM specific stuff is suspension bits to make the strut system racier. Things like LCAs so you can actually lower the car without shit hitting. No such problems with wishbone systems (one of the reasons I want to go to that, the other being struts wear out faster than shocks, and that's a big deal when you're talking 13 hour racing).

--Donnie

Wear out faster? Shit hitting? Sure struts aren't optimal for a race car (neither is a production vehicle) but this is all news to me. Seems a bit irrational to let something like "need double wishbone" drive you to a limited production vehicle. Bring lots of spares, not many people gonna be stocking NSX bits near the track....

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:33 am

I'm with Mike here. The double wishbone requirement takes a heck of a lot of good candidates out of play. I also agree that you're unlikely to be able to run into Danville and get a widget for an NSX. It's certainly less likely than finding that widget for an M3.

A Mitsubishi Evo might be fun, but I'm unsure of the reliability. If your old STI fit in your trailer, I imagine an Evo would too.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:06 pm

My STi never fit *this* trailer. Don't know if it would or not. An E46 won't fit. *shrug*

Anyway, should I really have to espouse the virtues of a double wishbone suspension over struts for a RACE CAR on THIS FORUM?

Seriously, I've had a lot of both, and struts wear out faster. It's the nature of the beast since you add a lot more side loading that a shock doesn't see. Then you have the strange mods you have to make to adjust things that are much easier on double wishbone. Then you have more ideal camber curves and the like. I could go on.

And I didn't say it was a requirement, just that it was something to aspire to if possible. Apparently I wasn't clear enough on that.

An Evo? Really? Talk about fragile. No thanks. It's unlikely I'll ever see the day I own a Mitsubishi product. Bleck.

As for running to Danville for a car part, well, I've never done that for any car. *shrug* Anything I could potentially get in Danville I'd generally already have a spare for in the trailer. I mean I get the whole advantage to driving something common, but at that point you're fighting over a few tenths to be faster. If we want to go a lot faster, well, it's likely gonna have to be in something nobody else is driving. Heck, on a 13 weekend you'd have a tough time finding a Corvette part in the paddock, too. *shrug*

--Donnie

Keith Vail · **Posted:** Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:01 pm

Well I don't think the IS300 will fit in your trailer. They are 54.88 inches tall in stock trim.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:33 pm

Donnie Barnes wrote:

But the IS300 idea has merit. One to consider for sure. Not sure one would fit in the trailer, though. Did I mention we need to be under 53" in height, too? It's also gonna be easier to find bolt-on go-fast stuff for an NSX than an IS300. But still one to think about.

--Donnie

SC300 is going to be lower than an IS, probably a similar learning curve, a normally aspirated Mk IV Supra will be similar to the SC300. Plenty of parts out there for the 2JZ 6 cylinder that lives in all of those cars. All are double wishbone up front. A lot more of Supras and SC300's sold than NSX's (but a stock NSX will likely be faster than the modified Toyotas...)

In race trim, none of those cars should be as pig-ish as they are in stock trim.

Scott

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:54 pm

scottjohnson wrote:

SC300 is going to be lower than an IS, probably a similar learning curve, a normally aspirated Mk IV Supra will be similar to the SC300. Plenty of parts out there for the 2JZ 6 cylinder that lives in all of those cars. All are double wishbone up front. A lot more of Supras and SC300's sold than NSX's (but a stock NSX will likely be faster than the modified Toyotas...)

In race trim, none of those cars should be as pig-ish as they are in stock trim.

More good options I haven't thought of. The SC300 and the Supra are neither very attractive looking cars, but for what we want that's not that big of a deal. We do know that engine can handle BIG power, so 300ish NA shouldn't be a problem as far as longevity or mileage. Any aero for the SC300 would have to be custom, but there's probably stuff out there for the Supra.

I still lean toward the NSX as I think it's a better overall platform, but these are VERY good alternative possibilities. Good call, Scott. Could definitely be cheaper in the long term (and short term, for that matter).

--Donnie

Pete Guthrie · **Posted:** Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:03 pm

nissan 300zx twin turbo coupe. or a e36 m3. cool car.. not terribly expensive.. or a e30 bmw

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

You choose one of the lower production built cars. You like flirting with fate do you? I know the Honda engines are reputable. But that car is pretty exotic by any standards.

The all aluminum frame is going to be fun welding a roll cage into. I know when I asked Chris Schimmel to do a roll bar in my C5 he went off on aluminum frame, blah, blah.... The C5 actually has a hydroformed steel rail/frame. Easily welded. Might take some real custom fabricator to gut,frame up, weld up that NSX. The Toyota or other Honda shells might be a better choice.

What is your problem with fiberglass? Is this a lot of bump and grind racing? If so an NSX is a poor choice also. That glass on a 5th gen Vette is light and can be repaired or cut quickly in the pit. It is not pure fiberglass like the C4. You can speed tape the stuff and it'll hold. After my forray into the Oak Tree tire wall I taped it all up with standard duct tape and painters tape and drove all weekend. I've seen much more busted ones taped up and run. The Vette is only 200-300lbs heavier than the NSX. And can be lightened almost down to NSX weight. Ultimately the NSX could be lightened even more I'm sure.

Gas mileage? What exactly do you call or assume is good gas mileage? Better yet what is your target based on that 25 gal fuel cell?

A 99 FRC with LS1 will get you 300hp with no tweaking or dicking around. Do a conservative tune for mileage and throw some long tube headers on it. You'll get more power and better gas mileage out of it. The 6sp is geared well for VIR. The LS1 will run all day long. Bring a spare belt and tensioner and run the piss out of it. Then coast the straights in 5th when you need to conserve fuel.

For an example. I was playing with gas mileage on track for fun. I ran some nice quick laps at Roebling in my Z06. Left it in 4th gear. I averaged at least 13mpg. At VIR using 3rd and 4th I go from 8-10mpg. When I swap out 5th on the straights I am at 12mpg at least. Is that not close enough to what you need? That is out of dyno tuned LS6 aimed for performance. An LS1 dyno tuned conservative should do better.

You can find a 99 FRC for probably $10K or so. You could easily stay under your $45K budget. It'll fit in your trailer. A 6' 5" drive can get in with a good race seat on custom rails. Use a slider and you can swap drivers painlessly. Unless you are all 6' 5".

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