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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:59 pm 
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Deleted reply- not useful. (Why didn't I get a delete button on this?)

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Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531


Last edited by Carl Fisher on Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Richard Casto wrote:
I think that many (not all) people are opposed to ideas such as global warming because a “fix” (if one even exists) would require…

1. Would require cooperation across the globe.
2. Would require solutions driven not by the private sector, but by governments.
3. Would require money to be spent without any short term return on investment.



On the contrary - most people I know that are anti-fix-global-warming (pro-global-warming?) are firmly stuck at the "Not enough scientific proof and too many contraindicators exist" stage.

IE not convinced there is something to fix.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:10 pm 
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In another few billion years, this discussion won't really matter. That's my view on the subject. Maybe after humans hit the reset button by causing their own extinction, something intelligent will evolve.

:whoknows:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:26 pm 
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MikeWhitney wrote:
Richard Casto wrote:
I think that many (not all) people are opposed to ideas such as global warming because a “fix” (if one even exists) would require…

1. Would require cooperation across the globe.
2. Would require solutions driven not by the private sector, but by governments.
3. Would require money to be spent without any short term return on investment.



On the contrary - most people I know that are anti-fix-global-warming (pro-global-warming?) are firmly stuck at the "Not enough scientific proof and too many contraindicators exist" stage.

IE not convinced there is something to fix.


I hope you are right Mike and I am wrong as in your case there is more hope for change than in my scenario. I still think people have a really hard time divorcing the concepts of "existance of problem" from "potential solutions".

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:26 pm 
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Richard Casto wrote:
I really don't know the details of that ice age article, but you mention there was a scientific consensus at that time that a new ice age was upon us. I am very doubtful that there was a large consensus on that or even that it was even a topic of discussion. I could be wrong, but that article just reads to me like a fluff article on a theory put forth by one or two people. If I remember correctly the article even mentioned at least one person who felt that the theory was wrong.


OK, I guess I should have researched that a little more before posting about it. After further review, apparently I definitely overstated when I said there was a scientific consensus at the time. More accurately, there was an observed three decade long global cooling period that ended in the mid 70s. There were several high profile scientific studies including those from NASA, the National Science Board, and the National Academy of Sciences that presented the possibility of a rapidly cooling globe and a coming ice age. Though definitely not a consensus in the scientific community as there were still more studies that pointed to warming. The media did take off an run with the ice age concept at the time probably because it was more sensational and catastrophic than the one pointed to by the global warming scientists. Global cooling/ice age garnered much media attention and several books were written about it.

I don't see that this is that much different that what Al Gore and other non-scientist who are preaching doom and gloom currently. I think most scientists are not sending that message, most just admit that global warming is happening, and there's a pretty good chance that humans have some responsibility.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:18 pm 
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Wes Eargle wrote:
edit: Penn and Teller's Bullshit on Recycling -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onDbTL9DFpA


That was a really entertaining video. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:13 am 
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Carl Fisher wrote:
I'm sure you know a lot more about cars than I do, Donnie. But can you give me an example of what you're talking about? It seems to me our cars are more gas-efficient than ever before, burning as lean as possible and making tons of power for their displacement as well. Are you saying that cars would get even better gas mileage if car companies weren't also required to worry about SOx and NOx emissions? That sounds potentially complicated to figure out which course would be worse for the planet overall. But since we're already on this course, I'm not too wistful for the other one.


It takes work to clean the emissions in the system. That work has to come from somewhere, and the cleaner you want it, the harder you have to work to get it. I'm not technical enough to provide an explanation on how it all works, but suffice it to say that the cleanliness of your emissions is not simply thanks to an increase in efficiency in burning things. It's a LOT of factors combined, with a few of them being thanks to greater efficiency (like direct injection, which is relatively new) and many of them not (like catalytic converters, which while getting pretty good at what they do still rob power).

While we are finding ways to be more efficient, go check what the 70's smog crap on cars did to fuel mileage. We probably guzzled through TRILLIONS of barrels of oil thanks to what amounted to pretty bad smog controls that also killed mileage to boot.

But, all that said, perhaps having the fuel scare NOW will lead us to work harder NOW to rely less on the stuff we won't have. Of course the counter argument is that had we not bothered for longer and thus not used up more of the precious resource, well, we'd be able to work on finding the resolution to the running out problem later when we're generally more technologically advanced.

It's all a bunch of "we don't really know" and I'm generally in favor of doing what we can to reduce the emissions. But I think in some ways we go overboard on this one tiny area (cars) when that money could be better spent on other things that might help more. Humans are some pretty hefty CO2 producers.


--Donnie


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:59 am 
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Some are pretty hefty CH4 producers, too. :woo:

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Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:42 am 
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brrr, global warming sucks. 1.5 inches of warm snow on the ground this morning. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:10 am 
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steve remchak wrote:
brrr, global warming sucks. 1.5 inches of warm snow on the ground this morning. :lol:


That type of "global warming" will return to these parts in just a few months. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:19 am 
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It sucks how it still gets hot in the summer and cold in the winter.

Dumbfounding, isn't it? :whoknows:

Damn global warming, it made us a ton of money in deicing fluid sprayed (~$18/ gallon) today. Yay, global warming!!!! :woo:

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