Pass the Green Economic Recovery Plan

ChrisSuich · **Posted:** Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:19 pm

I started reading this thread today... depression is sinking in. I don't understand enough to offer solutions and I'm powerless to stop what I don't want to happen.
The bailout bill is a steam roller coming with good and bad. If we are being so buddy-buddy and bi-partisan, do we have to have all the pork in this bill? Reading some of that bill... How does $335 million for STD's prevention programs (yes sexual transmitted diseases) stimulate the economy? I see, "(2) To assist those most impacted by the recession." This is more like the someone's ultimate Bill. :banghead:

My 401(k) s a 201(k). I'll be working forever.
As an individual real estate investor I'm being oppressed by the new Fannie Mae guidelines of 4 loans max per individual so I can't get a new loan without going commercial and paying more for the privilege of being a smart investor. I can't buy a property to help take one off the market. If I sell a property I'll have to pay taxes because I can't get a new loan to replace the property in a 1031 exchange. I'm screwed and I'm not alone...
http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/stories/2008/12/05/loan_limit_foreclosure.html :soap:

Then I read my horoscope...

Quote:

January 29, 2009 Sagittarius (11/22-12/21)

There's no need to worry that you are losing things today -- anything you lose either doesn't really matter or can be easily replaced. Just let yourself get carried away and do your thing without worrying about little details. You've got bigger fish to fry! For a while now, you've been over thinking things a bit too much -- and this has been keeping you from moving forward. Stop worrying whether or not you'll fall on your face and just move forward!

Sayonara!!
See some of you Saturday/Sunday for RallyX where my troubles will surely be forgotten... until Monday

steve remchak · **Posted:** Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:36 pm

ChrisSuich wrote:

I started reading this thread today... depression is sinking in. I don't understand enough to offer solutions and I'm powerless to stop what I don't want to happen.
The bailout bill is a steam roller coming with good and bad. If we are being so buddy-buddy and bi-partisan, do we have to have all the pork in this bill? Reading some of that bill... How does $335 million for STD's prevention programs (yes sexual transmitted diseases) stimulate the economy? I see, "(2) To assist those most impacted by the recession." This is more like the someone's ultimate Bill. :banghead:

My 401(k) s a 201(k). I'll be working forever.
As an individual real estate investor I'm being oppressed by the new Fannie Mae guidelines of 4 loans max per individual so I can't get a new loan without going commercial and paying more for the privilege of being a smart investor. I can't buy a property to help take one off the market. If I sell a property I'll have to pay taxes because I can't get a new loan to replace the property in a 1031 exchange. I'm screwed and I'm not alone...
http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/stories/2008/12/05/loan_limit_foreclosure.html :soap:

Then I read my horoscope...

Quote:

January 29, 2009 Sagittarius (11/22-12/21)

There's no need to worry that you are losing things today -- anything you lose either doesn't really matter or can be easily replaced. Just let yourself get carried away and do your thing without worrying about little details. You've got bigger fish to fry! For a while now, you've been over thinking things a bit too much -- and this has been keeping you from moving forward. Stop worrying whether or not you'll fall on your face and just move forward!

Sayonara!!
See some of you Saturday/Sunday for RallyX where my troubles will surely be forgotten... until Monday

so who do you use for your flooring needs?

hmmn.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:45 pm

Chris,

As you are pointing out indirectly, there are definitely some tax law changes that could have an immediate and profound impact on our economy. Unfortunately, any talk along these lines is labeled as partisan, so there is no chance for real discussion to take place.

For example, if the goal is to truly impact the economy, we can do so literally immediately with hardly any cost (i.e. just look at the costs and inefficiencies of all of these massive new government programs along with how long they will take to do anything and likely be a substantial drain on private sector investment for MANY years to come). If we cut the payroll tax which can be done essentially overnight, we will have an immediate and substantial impact to every person's (assuming they work) bottomline. We can do this right now and have a direct and huge impact on the country. Instead of spending billions and billions of dollars on condom programs or new park benches, hoping that it somehow "stimulates the economy", cut the payroll tax.

At the same time, cut the capital gains tax. Heck, specify that new investment is free from capital gains taxes for 10 years. You want to see risk money that is hidden in Treasury bills come to surface? Make it wise to invest that money. Provide real incentives for scared as heck people to take their money out of the T-bill mattress and invest in the future. It ain't happening with a government project.

Stuff like that will immediately stimulate massive portions of our economy, and the best part about them is that they are almost free to implement. No need to setup a new government bureaucracy (there's already one in place for them), hire new government workers, etc.

One problem with this is that 98% of the American public doesn't even know what the payroll tax is as they are shielded from seeing it (unless they run a company or are self-employed), so you'll have to specify for them a simple formula to show how much more money their paycheck will be from then on.

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

Even easier payroll tax issue. Why not just do the flat tax. Everyone pays XX %. It simplifies the tax system. Remove a lot of complication from the taxes and filling out your IRS tax forms. I think it would dent the IRS where they would loose a lot of jobs. But it's less government if we do.

I look at the concept of free enterprise and think that we should just let all 3 car makers sink. But part of me says we can't let that happen and have No American car makers left. It just bugs me. They have big problems. Giving them a check and telling them to try harder won't work. What do we do? As part of the bailout they have to fire all their executive board? Union gets destroyed? Give a 1 time payout to retired union employees and tell the rest tough. You got a job with no union. Better than being on the unemployment line. I know I don't have the answer. I just shudder to see them die.

Oh and the Capital Gains tax deal expires in 2010. I doubt it will get extended. Ann was pretty upset about that. I got the gist of it. Yet another way to over tax people who are actually able to make money.

I'm glad you guys aren't letting this thread derail. It is actually educational and interesting. Economics is not something I was ever interested in. I am a lot more now...

Btw, I watched a show on Nova about the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia and Arne's Green Program. There is some interesting things in it. Unfortunately you can see one big downside. Small businesses take a beating on it. I suspect this will make or break him pushing this program. On the surface it sounds all Green and Good. Remove coal power, solare and wind power, battery power, lower pollution significantly. Create a whole new industry for Americans building Green products. Solar panels, wind mills, electric cars, power plants, etc. So it is being sold as a big win win for the environment, economy, jobs, leading the world in clean technology, etc... I think it means he has to stop driving his Hummer too ;-)

Graham

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:51 pm

Graham Jagger wrote:

Even easier payroll tax issue. Why not just do the flat tax. Everyone pays XX %. It simplifies the tax system. Remove a lot of complication from the taxes and filling out your IRS tax forms. I think it would dent the IRS where they would loose a lot of jobs. But it's less government if we do.

Flat Tax or Fair Tax remove the power from the politicians. It will NEVER happen.

Graham Jagger wrote:

I think it means he has to stop flying a private jet from LA to Sacramento everyday ;-)

Graham

FIXED (yes, he really does that)

Pete Guthrie · **Posted:** Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:52 pm

50 percent of the nations power.. comes from coal. although west virginia money is in coal.. if we want a difference, we need to really help the areas, that dont have much.. make a way for them to help and make money.. then we can all be happier.. being someone who does not have much money.. i can appreciate this stance. Still, as the technology becomes easily available, cleaning things gradually will be possible. Making sweeping changes without the supporting technology, will be difficult to meet.

that is all.

I voted for obama personally, for the promises for infrastructure repair.
Which means jobs for me.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:13 pm

Pete,

Sadly our state is dead last in the proportion of the bill for infrastructure and transportation spending on a per capita basis. Delaware edged us out by 3/100th of a point, $108.02/person.

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/ ... S0109.html

You can click the 4 buttons to the left of the USA map to see the breakdown colors change by topic. All data is below map in the table.

Chuck

ChrisSuich · **Posted:** Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:32 pm

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Pete,

Sadly our state is dead last in the proportion of the bill for infrastructure and transportation spending on a per capita basis.

Oh yeah... I'm feeling a lot better now!

Pete, I think you need to move to Washington DC. $634/capita for transportation.
Look at the bright side. You'll be a lot closer to the WDC RallyX home course at Summit Point. :lol:

Carl Fisher · **Posted:** Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:16 am

The bill has passed the house, now on to the Senate:

Cathy Zoi, Repower America wrote:

Dear Carl,

Wow. In the last 24 hours, more than 40,000 We members wrote to their members of Congress to support the groundbreaking clean energy investments so central to the economic recovery bill. That's incredible.

The bill just cleared its first hurdle with yesterday's passage through the House. But it means our messages to the Senate in the next few days could be pivotal.

Can you send a quick note to your Senators today? It's easy, just click here.

Cathy

P.S. Yesterday, Alliance Chairman Al Gore testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee about the dangerous and growing threat of the climate crisis. The members of the Committee were captivated. Watch it here.
------------------------------

Dear Cathy,

Today, I will be testifying before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee about repowering America and the need for us to resume global leadership on the climate crisis. As you know, it's a critical time in our country and we all have a role to play.

I've recorded a short video message to share my perspective on what's at stake right now. Take a moment and
please watch it.

In Congress, our leaders are debating an economic recovery package. It includes unprecedented support for putting Americans back to work building a clean energy economy.

But entrenched interests in Washington will be working hard to weaken the legislation -- opposing funding for clean energy programs that support things like wind, solar, energy efficiency and a new national electric grid.

As members of Congress work out the details of a bill that can pass both the House and the Senate, it's important that you let each of your elected representatives know that you want the recovery to be about repowering America.

You and I know that continuing with the status quo will not revitalize the U.S. economy. Please make sure your elected officials know, too.

Watch the video and send a quick note to Congress:

http://www.RepowerAmerica.org/RecoveryVideo

Today, we can start to get America back on track.

Thanks for everything,

Al Gore

www.RepowerAmerica.org

Todd Breakey · **Posted:** Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:35 am

Dammit. I could have gone all day without seeing theAlgore.

Bernie Baake · **Posted:** Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:18 am

Do you mean this AL GORE ?????
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/gorehome.asp

steve remchak · **Posted:** Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:28 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf69EEL3WBk

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:36 am

Bernie Baake wrote:

Do you mean this AL GORE ?????
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/gorehome.asp

Hey Bernie, but he buys "carbon offsets" (which by the way, if you thought any of the banking business the past year was like a scam, this carbon offset stuff is beyond belief. It is amazing what you can convince people of who won't take the time to build their own, educated, opinion about). Carbon offset trading has a large number of people looking to make some tidy sums off these people who think it is actually a valid idea.

Back to the topic...if this bill passes the Congress (and of course Obama will sign it), it is going to be interesting to watch the world's markets response. For all intents and purposes, at some point we should get one rip of a rally. Sentiment sucks about as bad as it can be, nobody would believe a move up, etc, so the tinder is burning under the ammo shack. A rip your face off rally is long overdue in this bear market. The character of that rally will be important if it happens...if the market moves too far too fast, then ugh...

The other side of the coin is that after this bill, we as a country are, in Texas hold 'em style, "all in" and waiting for the flop. With the Fed buying every piece of junk there is and holding Fed Funds at essentially 0%, and now the government passing a massive spending bill, the question arises: "what happens if the markets rollover and breakout to the downside"? What then? If this happens, the Congress will of course blame the new problem on the past w/o seeing that they are part of the problem...and so it goes.

If I was the world's markets, I would make a huge false move in the wrong direction of where I'm truly headed first....shake out all those on who can't stand the risk to get to the station. Markets seem to just work that way at times.

Wes Eargle · **Joined:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am **Posts:** 3683

We're fucked.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:25 pm

IBTL

(Just kidding). :lol:

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