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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:48 am 
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BriceJohnson wrote:
So you're claiming that he didn't give the position back? Did you SEE the race? You've already outed yourself as biased I suppose. . .

:roll:


Brice, I think Rob is yanking your chain and "yes" I think he would say he is biased. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:21 am 
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Matthew Fortner wrote:
Could it have been a violation of gaining place advantage, but one of over all time advantage?


That is the best argument that can be made. An example of this would be if you are chasing down someone (they are many seconds ahead of you) and you cut chicanes to cut your lap time (so you can eat into the lead of the driver in front of you). You would be gaining an advantage by shortcutting, but not by taking a position.

Obviously in hindsight, to avoid the entire situation, Lewis could have either not tried the pass at the chicane, or once he did cut the chicane, give Kimi a 2-3 car distance so that nobody could complain. I can see that even with the fact that Lewis was on top of/beside Kimi position wise that if Kimi exited the chicane before Lewis that he would normally pull 1-2 cars lengths because he can accelerate first. However, as you can see as they both exit the chicane and with Lewis on the dirty line Kimi still has problems getting up to speed, so I feel that no advantage was gained.

Basically the end result is that for what is viewed by most as either be no infraction or pushing the limit reversed the results of a race. Race results should only be altered by serious infractions. If they feel the need to issue a penalty, then make it a cash penalty like they did for Ferrari with respect to the recent pit-stop fiasco (releasing car into path of other car in pitlane.

What nobody is talking (here) about is the situation with regards to F1 race stewards. My understanding is that the FIA has a pool of volunteers (supposedly not officially tied to FIA) and the FIA then picks three for each race. Apparently the experience level of the stewards varies widely, they are not professional (this is not their day jobs) so penalties are all over the place race to race. There is no consistency. There is an op-ed article on a F1 news site named something like "The day racing died". Basically it goes on about how it is basically too risky for a team or driver to do anything these days. That Hamilton's best action would have been to just follow Kimi around to the finish and settled for 2nd place. Why risk doing something like making an aggresive pass if you run the risk of having the stewards blow something out of proportion issue a severe penalty that can't be challenged? So take no risks but with the result of a boring race.

The same article points to the Arnoux/Villeneuve battle in 79 French GP as to what was right and what is now missing in F1. Here you have two guys racing each other very hard. They are banging wheels, etc. Today a steward could easily randomly pick one or the other and exclude them from the results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sDtn8QnpFg

This also takes away from how amazing the final two laps were. It was as dramatic as it could be. As with the Arnoux/Villeneuve battle above, this could be the video that people watch years from now. You have 1st and 2nd approach a lapped car that had just spun and you have Lewis and Kimi within inches of each other (anyone watch to replay to see how close Kimi came to hitting Lewis??). Lewis going off to avoid collision, reentering the track, Kimi then spinning, etc. It was crazy and fun to watch.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:15 am 
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Arnoux and Villeneuve HATED each other. Gilles felt that Arnoux cost him a championship by not giving him a victory and never forgave him. There is some thought that this feeling is what made Villeneuve run so hard at practice leading to his death.

me, biased, perish the thought. :shock:

And Wes, watch the FIA open wheel races GP2 and F1 and you will see this penalty being assessed relatively often. Usually the driver backs off and lets the other guy back and then starts over again. This is one of the few times I've seen where the pursuer was able to tuck right in again which is what may have confused the stewards into thinking he did not give back the position. And yes, they are local officials, not FIA employees.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:34 am 
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Richard Casto wrote:



That was worth all the other suck this thread is fillled with.


AMAZING!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:21 pm 
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The Arnoux battle was epic. Actually it was Didier Pironi who was Villenueve's teammate who he hated. I get all the French people confused. :oops:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:26 pm 
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Ryan Holton wrote:
Richard Casto wrote:



That was worth all the other suck this thread is fillled with.


AMAZING!



"the greatest driver to ever have plopped his bottom in a Formula One car" Great line.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:28 pm 
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RobLupella wrote:
The Arnoux battle was epic. Actually it was Didier Pironi who was Villenueve's teammate who he hated. I get all the French people confused. :oops:


Where the hate came from...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_San_Marino_Grand_Prix

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:02 pm 
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McLaren’s statement in full:
Martin Whitmarsh said: "Following our decision to register our intention to appeal the penalty handed out to Lewis Hamilton by the FIA Stewards at the 2008 Belgian Grand Prix, we hereby confirm that we have now lodged notice of appeal. Lewis describes the incident as follows."

Lewis Hamilton said: "In the closing stages of the race I was catching Kimi (Raikkonen) consistently, lap by lap, and with three laps remaining I got close enough to attempt to overtake him on the entry to the last chicane. I managed to get slightly ahead of him in the braking area for the first apex of the chicane. He fought back approaching the second apex - but, in doing so, he left no room for me on the inside line. The only way for me to avoid a collision was therefore to cut inside the second apex.

"I came out of the second apex in front of Kimi and so I momentarily lifted-off on the straight, to ensure that Kimi got back in front. The team also came on the radio and instructed me to allow Kimi to repass, which I had already done. As a result, Kimi crossed the start/finish line ahead of me and 6.7km/h quicker than me.

"After allowing Kimi to completely repass, I crossed from the left side of the track to the right side of the track, passing behind Kimi in the process. I then attacked Kimi on the inside of the first corner, and successfully outbraked him."

Martin Whitmarsh added: "From the pit wall, we then asked Race Control to confirm that they were comfortable that Lewis had allowed Kimi to repass, and they confirmed twice that they believed that the position had been given back in a manner that was 'okay'.

"If Race Control had instead expressed any concern regarding Lewis’s actions at that time, we would have instructed Lewis to allow Kimi to repass for a second time."

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:46 am 
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Ryan Holton wrote:
Richard Casto wrote:



That was worth all the other suck this thread is fillled with.


AMAZING!


Yes it was... then I watched the news report about Gille's crash and it was sickening. I hadn't seen that before. :(

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:32 am 
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Stacy King wrote:
Ryan Holton wrote:
Richard Casto wrote:



That was worth all the other suck this thread is fillled with.


AMAZING!


Yes it was... then I watched the news report about Gille's crash and it was sickening. I hadn't seen that before. :(


I had not seen that before either. It is rather graphic once you realize that blur is him flying through the air after the car breaks in half. We have come a long way regarding F1 driver safety.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:37 pm 
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Speaking of '79 Grand Prix cars... check this out:

http://www.iracing.com/newsEvents/article.php?id=79

:thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:46 am 
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oK... so I finally got around to actually WATCHING the race yesterday... and while I of course was miffed at the penalty on Hamilton (I'm a fan BTW), now I'm just dumbfounded that anyone would take what happened over the last two laps of that race and essentially ruin it.

Those last couple laps come REALLY darn close in my opinion to the video just posted of Villenueve in terms of action and excitement.

I know it's easy to second-guess someone... and if this penalty had been handed out immediately (i.e. not three hours after the race conclusion) then it could have been passed off on inexperience or volunteers. But if you take into consideration all the factors of the last few laps (deteriorating conditions, championship standings, and above all: close competition) it should have been an easy no-call... especially since Hamilton did the right thing conceding the position as soon as he was able. He shouldn't be penalized for Kimi's red mist. There was no time advantage gained. Hamilton was 3/4's of a car past Kimi on the entrance to the chicane when Kimi pushed him wide.

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