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Wow... That is insane.

I wish STi's, S2k's, and Evos could be such a bargain.

While this is true, I believe the G8 stands a better chance purely because it is a sedan and doesn't have some of the design shortcomings that the GTO had. I assume it has a real trunk? I also think its a very handsome car. Its pricing is very attractive as well as you can get a V8 for under $30K.

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I like the looks of the car too. However, I suspect Pontaic is targeting too small a part of the market. I'm betting the majority of sedan buyers are looking for decent room and better fuel economy than an SUV, and are also shopping for price. If Pontiac is aiming at BMW and touting performance across the line, it won't register with those folks. Those in the market for a BMW and can afford a new or late model used one, will buy a BMW. So you're down to those who want a new car and want a BMW but don't want to pay that freight. (They're the ones Ford was trying to entice with the original SHO, at an $8K premium over an $18K base model. They found a few thousand buyers a year for the 1st gen version, and they were hard core, but I can't believe they did much for Ford's bottom line.)

For the UTE version, if modern pick-ups weren't so darned luxurious these days, it would probably be pretty popular, like the Rancheros and El Caminos of the 1960s. It's hard to sell a cowboy Cadillac to someone who already has a cowboy Cadillac.

Maybe I've got it all wrong. Pontiac used to sell the heck out of their big sedans and maybe they'll crack the code again. Wonder what happened to my high school math teacher's 1964 Star Chief? Black, stacked headlamps, 389 4bbl, and she probably never drove it more than 35 mph.

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Art McDonald
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Rodney is a waxer (but in a good way)

[quote="Donnie Barnes
there's certainly nothing stopping GM from killing the Solstice and offering ZOK and GXP Sky's).
[/quote]

They DO offer a Sky Redline, which is the same as the GXP. Not sure if they offer a ZOK equivalent Sky though.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

They definitely do not offer a ZOK equiv of the Sky, and I'm fairly certain the Sky Redline is much less desirable than a Solstice GXP for autocross or road race purposes. While both are turbo, I believe the Sky is heavier and may not even have the same suspension. Not entirely sure on that.

--Donnie

At least in my world, the G8 does not share the same market space as the CTS-V. The $20K difference is a pretty big separator. Even a base CTS is $5K more than a fully optioned G8 6 cylinder.

And the G8 is not an extended GTO (2004-2006):roll:. It is developed on the new Zeta platform being shared by the Camaro. If it wasn't for CAFE, it would probably have underpinned a new Impala. But looks to be the basis for the GM cars destined for China and the new CUV's here in the US.

Finally, lumping the Ute into the SSR category is silly. Bringing the Ute to the US will cost GM a very small fraction of what the development of the stupid SSR cost.

It is nice to see GM roll out a decent RWD four door sedan under $30K with a very good suspension under them, regardless of the power plant.

I return you now back to the Chuck Frank bashing...good call Graham.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
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2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
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Matt, I keep telling you, they can be. I paid $22K for my car a year and a half ago, with 14K miles on it.

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Karl S.
2014 Baby, 2014 House, 2013 Ford Focus ST, 2013 BMW 328i, 1994 Mercedes E320
(Insert passive aggressive signature line here)

That is pretty darn close... Good point. I would probably have an AP2 in Berlina in my driveway now, but I just never sold myself on the idea that convertables are for me. I still get anxious every once in while riding with novices in an open top car. Weird, I know...

Despite all the mixed Pontiac opinions I do think this ad comes across with a powerful message that they want to be a contender in the power-sporty-sedan market segment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THMuoUgNvks

I've only seen or noticed one G8 on the road in black and it looked pretty sweet. It sort of reminded me of an Acura TL on 'roids. However, I would never consider purchasing one due to the way the domestics depreciate. The GTO is a perfect example.

It's not the same space, but it's pretty close when you compare base to base or loaded to loaded. And once you're at loaded vs loaded is where it really doesn't make much sense, IMHO, because you're now in the area where that extra few thousand probably isn't a big deal to the target audiences and the Caddy probably has enough extras to make up for the differences anyway.



The SSR didn't share a platform with anything else? And even if the development costs are wildly different, the point is the Ute is no more useful and serves no more of a market than the SSR did. So ANY amount of development is likely wasted. *shrug*



It's nice, sure. Is it enough? Things like that COULD be, if they weren't also going to lose money on stuff like the Ute and the whole host of other cars in the Pontiac line that make no sense.



I'm still waiting for someone to point out where Chuck was bashed in this thread. If it weren't me (or Aaron) that posted what I posted, nobody would have had anything to say about the post and the somewhat interesting debate would have still happened.

But hey, if I did something wrong, I'd really like a better idea of what it was. And why is nobody else giving the General a hard time in this thread getting accused of something? Sheesh.


--Donnie

Seems the last time we saw Pontiac on top of the world they had a bunch of cool offerings with big V8s. Then gas prices went through the roof and the Japanese were there with their spartan little econoboxes that got good milage.

Now here we are, 30 years later and the cycle is primed to repeat itself...

Shhh, I think I hear the auction block calling. GM will be bankrupt in 5 years.

Scott

x2.

I think I was GM bashing. I was recently offered a job at GM and turned them down based solely on their horrible outlook. Not that Wachovia looks all that pretty, but there is still $810B in holdings and our issue was the poor timed purchase of Golden West/World Savings. We aren't going belly up anytime soon.

In another year, the bank/credit crisis will seem like nothing in comparison to the American car industry. - AB

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You mean they don't have a good business formula? Sell small, (relatively) fuel efficient cars below cost just to meet CAFE standards, while making a killing marking up SUV's, etc to beef up the bottom line.

Now the loss leaders are going to be the top sellers and the SUV's are excess inventory that they can't even sell at a loss.

The Japanese are going to suffer too, but either they:

1) don't have a ton of excess inventory or
2) do a better job of hiding it.

It's easy to find a Ford/GM dealership with ACRES filled with cars and trucks, but a "big" Toyota dealership has just a fraction of that.


As to the original topic:

I like the G8 and under the right circumstances would consider buying one (I'd at least take it for a test drive). The pickup cars never made sense to me. Not then, not now.

Scott

WB hitting new multi-year low today...

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Current stable:
2019 BMW M2 Competition slicktop 6MT
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1975 CanAm 125MX2

Sure is, and I continue to buy. Why? Even at a 46% reduction in the dividend, the dividend for each share is still a good value and I know in time it will go up. - AB

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Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

I don't know, for a group of car enthusiast to be GM bashing is kind of strange. Arguably, GM is putting out more cars geared towards the enthusiast than any other manufacture right now.

You can go into a GM dealership and purchase a car that rivals the top supercars in the world, a luxury sedan that competes well with finest the Germans have to offer, a sedan that ranks right there with the Japanese and German sedans and mid-size that is a viable option to the Japanese mid-size sedans and the best in class light duty trucks.

Not mention the CUV's that have gotten rave reviews, the two seater sports cars that are showing they are very competitive, etc, etc.

The missing piece is something to compete against the Koreans. They are ones you need to be watching out for. If you subscribe to the theory history repeats it self, which countries manufactures are in the position that the Japanese were 30 years ago? The Koreans.

As for the "experts" predicting the demise of GM, I give them as much credence as the groundhog. The demise of GM would have a serious ripple effect through out the economy. Taking down a lot of people. The gov't is bailing out these banks for their mismanagement and greed, I think they might help out GM. Maybe even giving the Volt a $7000 credit?

An interesting aside, the Japanese inventory system bit them hard with the Tundra. They discovered truck buyers are a lot more picky than car buyers. So they had to adopt the American method of trying to inventory pickups.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner