Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong&q

Carl Fisher · **Posted:** Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:55 pm

It seems to me that if we're in agreement now that the climate is changing (again, as we know it's done many times in the past), and the "new climate" is one that we're not going to like (e.g. sea level rising and flooding major cities, loss of arable land, displacement and starvation of people), then it's worth thinking about trying to slow or reverse it. Arguing about whether mankind is the cause or not doesn't seem particularly helpful. Even less helpful would be to argue that, since we don't believe mankind is to blame, therefore we should not be bothered to alter any wasteful habits (in terms of CO2 or pollution) that we might have become quite comfortable with.

Even if human CO2 emissions are not having a significant effect in altering the climate, why keep tossing grains of sand onto a ship that is foundering? We should be trying to remove the burden from the ship, should we not? If there are also a significant number of scientists out there who think that we're really tossing boulders, then even if they're wrong (but we can't prove it), isn't that all the more reason to act, just in case they're right? Better safe than sorry. After all, this is the only ship we've got.

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:32 pm

It takes resources to put the stop putting the grains of sand on the ship, though. If those resources are massive and better spent in moving the stuff from the coast before it's under water, wouldn't that be better?

I really don't know the answer, just playing devil's advocate here. I think the above is the point that people who are fighting the climate control nazis are trying to make. Let's be sure before we go too crazy spending resources that might be completely wasted in the grand scheme.

--Donnie

Carl Fisher · **Posted:** Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:27 pm

Donnie Barnes wrote:

Let's be sure before we go too crazy spending resources that might be completely wasted in the grand scheme.

Your point is well taken. But how long do we wait until we're "sure enough" to take those steps? There will always be vocal contingents who will continue to passionately argue their positions long after the issue is "settled" in the public consciousness. For a historical example, consider the cigarette companies' insistance (under oath, even) that their products were not harmful to their customers long after the evidence was no longer being disputed by anyone else.

Certainly many of the proposals out there are extremely costly, but there are many things we can do as individuals on a small scale that are basically free and only represent a small inconvenience. For example, I took my empty drink bottles home with me today to be recycled rather than throw them in the big trash bag at the bus. Sometimes I'll fill a bag with other people's recyclable trash as well. At every event we (as a club) fill multiple large trash bags, of which probably 90% is recyclable. At the Christmas party I learned that none of the empty bottles we generated would be recycled- I packed home as many of them as I could fit.

It's only a grain of sand, but if everyone in the world did it, that would be an awful lot of sand. Of course, as long as I continue to participate in motorsports I'm a hypocrite. For now I make various rationalizations for it, but I'm starting to suspect it's all a smoke screen... :oops:

That would be where real sacrifice would come in.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

ChuckNelson wrote:

MikeWhitney wrote:

ChuckNelson wrote:

Fair enough. I believe that most people that refuse to accept climate change are semi-retarded fundies

Climate change? Yes. Has been happening forever. Global warming? Probably, based on the data, both here and on Mars. Human caused? Inconclusive, and will probably never be truly known.

Sorry, but mankind-induced climate change at a significant and measureable level is impossible to prove. Some will believe and others won't.

If you really, really believe that we are ruining our planet (or at least the ability for humans to live here happily) I would suggest you consider quitting motorsports.

Excellent. I will drop by your place to get rid of all my waste oil, muratic acid, acetone, thinner, and other stuff.. The play area to the right of the drive way good? Kthxs.

Chuck, are you being dramatic for effect, or are you really serious with your zealousness? I'm actually interested in hearing if you disagree with anything I said. Not anything you think I implied, but what I actually said.

I take the topics of energy and the environment very, very seriously. There is just too much unfounded information and questionable judgement out there to joke around about it.

(PS - for the record, I did work for a solar cell company for 3 years, and I married a woman with a BS in Environmental Policies

So I'm not exactly an oil-well-hugger.)

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:05 am

All this talk of drink bottles...anyone notice the problem *those* cause? How many are we putting in landfills? Good recycling would mean not using them in the first place! Fortunately we now know that drinking bottled water is almost no better in many ways than drinking city water:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080309/ap_ ... awater_i_4

--Donnie

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:15 am