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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:24 pm 
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JACKASS!!!
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Well, soccer season is coming up. You'd better have some wedges along with a CapriSun.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:28 pm 
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Not spectacular just decent
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Location: Heading back to base for debriefing and cocktails.
I usually put 'em in a pillow case.

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Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:54 pm 
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Kinky.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:30 am 
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Keith Vail wrote:
Wes Eargle wrote:
Matthew Fortner wrote:
Right now turbo technology has a leg up on superchargers. Ball bearing, reliable variable vane geometry...etc. Not to mention they are cheaper.


Lag, heat soak, lack of bottom end torque, yeah, they're much better.


You haven't driven any car with variable vane geometry obviously. Not really any lag at all and bottom end torque is damn good in the 1.8T or 2.0T VW/Audi motors. Heat soak happens in superchargers as well. So I would take one of the new turbo systems over most supercharger systems.


Turbos certainly have their advantages no doubt, and the technology has come a long way, but I have recently driven one of these "holy grail" supposedly "lag-free" turbocharged cars, '07 GTI 2.0T, and while it had very little lag, it was still quite noticeable to me and annoying. No Thanks. ..


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:09 pm 
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Aww, what a cute little car!
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Les Davis wrote:
Keith Vail wrote:
Wes Eargle wrote:
Matthew Fortner wrote:
Right now turbo technology has a leg up on superchargers. Ball bearing, reliable variable vane geometry...etc. Not to mention they are cheaper.


Lag, heat soak, lack of bottom end torque, yeah, they're much better.


You haven't driven any car with variable vane geometry obviously. Not really any lag at all and bottom end torque is damn good in the 1.8T or 2.0T VW/Audi motors. Heat soak happens in superchargers as well. So I would take one of the new turbo systems over most supercharger systems.


Turbos certainly have their advantages no doubt, and the technology has come a long way, but I have recently driven one of these "holy grail" supposedly "lag-free" turbocharged cars, '07 GTI 2.0T, and while it had very little lag, it was still quite noticeable to me and annoying. No Thanks. ..


what were you doing test driving a VW...don't tell me you were contemplating replacing the goat with a VW....bwwwaaaaahahahahahahaha :wink: :P :wink: :P :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:30 pm 
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Les Davis wrote:
Turbos certainly have their advantages no doubt, and the technology has come a long way, but I have recently driven one of these "holy grail" supposedly "lag-free" turbocharged cars, '07 GTI 2.0T, and while it had very little lag, it was still quite noticeable to me and annoying. No Thanks. ..


Amen, brotha. No more turbos for me either. Anyone with a "lag free" turbo car, go drive a Miata or M3 or NA Subaru and tell me what causes the difference in throttle response (which is excellent in all 3 of those cars).

Am I the only one here who is totally unimpressed with the new Mini? To my non-enthusiast eye it looks exactly the same except for the "eyelids". Of course the original was so good, why change it, but it would be nice to see BMW be a little daring and try some new things...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:54 pm 
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no, you're definitely not the only one, totally underwhelmed, and so is much of the community (check mini2.com or northamericanmotoring, the reviews are definitely "mixed"). The car is more refined than the previous model, yes, but is that what you really want in a mini, refinement? Our '06 JCW car is plenty civilized for me, its the rawness of the car that I enjoy (although its certainly quite posh inside). I will be interested to see what they have done to the suspension, as they have supposedly revised it to "address complaints of a harsh ride". I think the ride is very sporting and appropriate (we have the sports package suspension with 17" runflat tires). Sounds like they are softening it as a whole, softened throttle response (turbo vs. supercharger), softened suspension, I dunno, sounds like they are going the wrong way with it, much like the now huge and bloated GTI (3300 lbs!!!)

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Last edited by BriceJohnson on Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:56 pm 
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MikeWhitney wrote:
Am I the only one here who is totally unimpressed with the new Mini? To my non-enthusiast eye it looks exactly the same except for the "eyelids". Of course the original was so good, why change it, but it would be nice to see BMW be a little daring and try some new things...


Im totally with you man. The cosmetic changes do nothing for me, and the switch from supercharger to turbocharger virtually guarantees I'll never buy one.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:17 pm 
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This is the same sort of cockup that the Solstice/Sky is doing: adding a turbo when a supercharger is the right thing to do.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:46 pm 
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MikeWhitney wrote:
Amen, brotha. No more turbos for me either. Anyone with a "lag free" turbo car, go drive a Miata or M3 or NA Subaru and tell me what causes the difference in throttle response (which is excellent in all 3 of those cars).


There is a reason I sold the WRX and got something NA. Between the Miata and the Crossfire I have two RWD cars with great response and better fuel economy than the Subaru could have ever wished to get.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:20 pm 
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I got my mini because it has the querkiness (how do you spell that?) of and english car but the reliability (well almost) of a german. I agree, if I want refinement, I will get a 3 series. I am quite happy with my 02 MCS. See no reason to spend more for a smoothed out body and 7 more hp. I'm going to do the pulley thing and maybe an exhaust and go 4 more years with out a payment.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:56 pm 
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Location: Durham, NC, in my garage, breaking something on the RX-7
If I may bring some balance to the issue...

What you supercharger aficionados are forgetting in your bliss of throttle response is the engine HP you are "losing" to spin the blower (or however you want to calculate it - you need to make more HP to generate the same HP that a turbo would generate). The beautiful thing about using exhaust gases is that they are mostly "free".

Properly sized turbos for the engine do just fine. It may feel like things are sluggish "down low" but the engine is still making power. Those of us who like them have learned to understand and deal with the lag and drive around it (sometimes it can even be helpful). Lag is hardly noticeable on a race track (my frame of reference). I haven't autocrossed in a while but I don't think you bog the engine down that low in the RPM range such that you are not in the sweet spot to get the boost when you open the throttle.

In any event, you have to make a compromise somewhere, even with a supercharger or with an N/A engine. Which compromise you make and how you deal with seems to divide up the "camps" on the issue. I acknowledge that there are some advantages to a supercharger but I'd rather be able to buy an inexpensive turbo as a replacement instead of a much more expensive blower and not have to deal with an extra belt or belt routing (plus it _seems_ to be easier to DIY turbocharge than supercharge).

If turbos are so bad, why hasn't Porsche ditched them and run superchargers? They use variable nozzle geometry (at last ECU's are advanced enough to be able to deal with the control system) in the latest iteration of the 911 and it seems to work just fine for them.

I saw this a while ago and have been waiting for just the right opportunity to use this line:
Turbocharged cars don't have turbo lag, it's just foreplay.

:D

Regards,
--Ashraf (owner of two turbocharged Mazdas, one currently with twin turbos and a couple of different sized turbos lying around at home to play with in the near future)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:23 am 
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Ashraf Farrag wrote:
In any event, you have to make a compromise somewhere, even with a supercharger or with an N/A engine.


What's the compromise in a NA engine?

Only thing I can think of is weight. But BMW, Toyota, and Honda seem to have been able to engineer around that.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:15 am 
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Ashraf Farrag wrote:
What you supercharger aficionados are forgetting in your bliss of throttle response is the engine HP you are "losing" to spin the blower (or however you want to calculate it - you need to make more HP to generate the same HP that a turbo would generate). The beautiful thing about using exhaust gases is that they are mostly "free".


I'm not "forgetting" anything actually. The first statement I made is that "turbochargers certainly have their advantages no doubt," I used to be a big fan of turbochargers, I've owned several turbocharged cars and even named my dog "turbo". After many years though, I grew to really hate lag, doesn't really matter if its a little or a lot, its just annoying.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:20 am 
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The nearly non-existent lag from a good modern turbo set up is preferable to me than the peaky on/off VTEC effect of the S2000 I drove. I hear the Toyota is similar?


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