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I've met a couple union members when I worked for Magneti Marelli, a parts supplier for Chrysler, and frankly, my statement still stands. I was unimpressed. Not to mention, I never said they were ruining the economy, they just ruin the company that they work for and any worker who chooses to be non-union.

They are necessary to a point to prevent worker abuse, but the UAW has taken it way farther than that, at least thats what I saw. When I was up supervising some of our workers on a rework in Detroit, we were told that we "shouldn't let anyone know why we were there, because the union workers might think we were cutting into their overtime pay and get angry with us".

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Oh, yeah. I forgot.

BMW's built in Germany. Union-built buy folks who make MORE than UAW members, and get 8 weeks vacation!!!. Yeah, right. BMW's suck.

Mercedes cars built in Germany. Union-built. Yep, Brice, they suck, too. Those folks are over-paid big time.

Ever wonder why Nissan, Honda, Toyota are paying near-Union scale, despite building their plants in BF? It's because the UAW is setting the standard. The folks who work at these plants enjoy the wage benefits of union membership without paying dues! If there were no unions in the auto business they'd be paying Wal-Mart wages and benefits

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Brad

Well, Brice, for a company being "ruined" by union members, looks like Magneti are doing pretty well financially, with nearly doubling their investments from 2004-2005.

"I've met a couple of Union members..." doesn't qualify you to reach any opinion regarding members ruining a company or those who choose not to be a part of the Union.

Regarding your sojurn into Detroit to do some work in a Union plant, if you were slinkin' around doing any work that should have been done by a Union member, then you were being dishonest and depriving those folks of their income. Shame on you and your crew if that was the case.

If you haven't ever been a union member, and participated in the bargaining process, you do not have all the information you need to make an informed decision on whether they are "good" or "bad" for the U.S. economy.

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Brad

Brad,

You’re a union leader..aren't you.

I agree there was a time when Unions were needed for fair worker treatment, but is that really the case anymore with the competitive workplaces? There are plenty of industries that function just fine with out them, many with 100K+ employees. Then there is the point of how much is the individual loosing with keeping the unions running (Dues, quota's, etc) vs just working straight with a slightly lower pay?

I think some of the unions (NOT the actual working Union employees) that have gotten greedy and too powerful over the years, to the point that they would rather drive a company into the ground than give any breaks, or even stay with the current reasonable offers. I also think there are a select few that hide behind the unions that are poor workers. How can a group or employer better itself if it can not adjust the employees that are not productive?

I think unions can still work, but they need to be revisited. The US and the world isn’t the same place it was in the 40s and 50s when these things were created.

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Marty Howard
2011 NASA SE Factory Five Challenge Champion
Track Events Logistics Coordinator - TZC/THSCC
2007 Factory Five Challenge Car.
http://www.mh-motorsports.com

Marty!!!!!

Yeah. I think we need a DRIVERS UNION

Demands:

1.) MORE GUARANTEED TRACK TIME!!!!
2.) Instructors who coddle you and praise you even when your screw up!
3.) LOWER entry fees...
4.) FREE Track Fuel!

The list is endless

Who's with me???!!!!

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Brad

MM USA is non-union, they are simply a supplier, and they have actually been in financial trouble recently, due to being squeeze so much by their customers, who need to try and find extra money to pay the UAW workers by juicing the suppliers, but thats neither here nor there.

Its not merely my experience working with a few but also my understanding of economic theory that leads me to believe that unions taken to the far extreme like the UAW (and their bloated health care and pension plans) hurts the company (since they have to pay for all that stuff of course). Other companies pay similar wages, wages only tell part of the story, its in the "other compensation" areas where UAW has gone so far.

And no, we weren't "slinking around doing their work", we were fixing a throttle body that we produced with workers we supplied. Since it was our job, and our problem to fix, we chose to use our own, more reaonably priced workers, but we were cautioned that union workers are very sensitive about their overtime being taken away (since they have bargained such a huge premium for it) that they actually do anything they can to get overtime work (even if its something they have nothing to do with, as was the case with this TB rework). The common problem with unions is they ask for things without considering where they need to come from, and often end up shooting themselves (and the company's they work for) in the foot as a consequence.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Ain't it wonderful when the American system works?? Differences in opinions are GOOOOD!

Fair enough. Glad you guys did it "right" up there in D'troit. No pox on your house.

Unions... You love 'em or hate 'em. But a resurgence could happen, especially in the Ag. and Retail areas, where wages are at subsistance levels, and "part-time" has replaced full time as the normal definition of employment.

Damn..... Getting cerebral again. Time for my anti-commie pill

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Brad

Brad for President!!! (of the car union and/or the club).

On the UAW debate. I'll just say I'm no fan of the current unions.

You take those pills too huh Brad

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http://www.greywinds.com

I hate to step into the “Union” debate, but I have to say something. Hopefully this will not be a flamefest…

Ok, yes Unions have their place. When you talk about fair practices and in general the entire aspect of worker rights, it is hard to argue against those points. Those are the foundations of why Unions exist and should continue to exist. But the world is not all black and white and Unions are not pure good or pure evil.

IMHO, recent history with UAW has shown that when the good times are good, they are all for getting their share (or maybe even more than their share). When times are bad, or the world changes, they can’t adapt and companies are stuck with contracts that don’t allow them to maneuver. I will also say that GM, Ford, etc. is just as complicit in the mess they are living through as much as the Unions.

So today, it is not so much “protect the members” in the old sense. It is more of “we can’t give up what we have for the principle of the thing”. I think all you have to point to is something like the “Job Bank” program. If that is not an example of a screwed up situation, I don’t know what is. I am not a huge fan of “management book of the month”, but the first thing that comes to mind is the book “Who moved my cheese” (google if it you don’t know what it is about). The point being that things have changed and that GM, Ford, UAW can’t figure out that they have to adapt. Or if they know they need to adapt, they will not make the hard decisions to make it work.

Regarding other manufactures that are either Union or non-Union and seem to work OK, I think that places like Germany have no problem producing quality products in a Union environment. However I believe that you can find plenty of news articles about problems with the Union nature of their workforce. That is not a blast on “Unions”, but rather what they currently consider to be their list of entitlements in those various countries. With that said, I will gladly move to having eight weeks of vacation!

Some companies in the US may be Union or not (don’t know myself) such as Toyota, Honda and BMW. I agree that ultimately the UAW has a huge impact on the wages that these people see even if they are not UAW members. However, given that they have near UAW wages as you say, they apparently have also figured out how to make it work and I suspect it is because there is a huge amount of other baggage that companies like GM and Ford have (per UAW negotiated contracts) that don’t affect Toyota, Honda, etc. So why can’t UAW, GM, Ford, etc. get together and restructure to follow an apparently working system that others are doing today? See my comments above about not being willing to make the changes that are needed. And this unwillingness is on both sides of the fence.

Basically I see things getting much worse for GM, Ford, etc. before it gets better. Or at the best, a slow controlled shrinkage of their market share until they are a shadow of what they used to be.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Amazingly, we had all that and a bag of chips when I worked at LITESPEC without a union. It's called: competition for my services as an employee. If you make me unhappy as an employee, I will leave and you'll have to train someone else.

And seeing how they shut down my non-union plant and kept operating the bloated, fat, inefficient union facility that cost twice as much to operate *BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T SHUT IT DOWN DUE TO A DAMN UNION CONTRACT*, I am no fan of unions.

Matt<---Survived 1 year of unemployment and near personal bankruptcy, for the most part thanks to a union.