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 Post subject: '97 Miata - upgrade / fix suggestions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:01 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:42 pm
Posts: 408
Location: Pinehurst
Okay, Sean and I will be running our '97 Miata this year and it needs a new clutch. Considering that it has 140k miles and everything other than brakes and tires were put on in Japan, what should we consider changing and with what? We could use a little advice.
    Clutch & flywheel
    Shocks/springs/bushings
    sway bars
    wheels and race tires
    cold air intake
    cat back
What would you do? We promise not to win any races after the upgrades :lol:

The plan is to run CSP.

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Colin O'Connell

'94 BMW NASA SPEC 3
'02 F350 tow vehicle (not bad for a tow vehicle)
'97 Miata STO (autoX and sunny day spoils vehicle)
'97 BMW 328i (loaner to the kids when their cars don't work vehicle)
'05 Toyota Highlander


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 Post subject: Re: '97 Miata - upgrade / fix suggestions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:53 am 
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I err on the side of being stupid
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Posts: 4743
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ColnOConnell wrote:
Okay, Sean and I will be running our '97 Miata this year and it needs a new clutch. Considering that it has 140k miles and everything other than brakes and tires were put on in Japan, what should we consider changing and with what? We could use a little advice.
    Clutch & flywheel
    Shocks/springs/bushings
    sway bars
    wheels and race tires
    cold air intake
    cat back
What would you do? We promise not to win any races after the upgrades :lol:

The plan is to run CSP.


Welcome to CSP, the little red, white and blue 91 intends to not let anyone else win races in 06 ;)

If your doing a clutch, thats the time to do a flywheel, its a nice upgrade and really does not impact street driving in my opinion. I wouldnt mess with the rear bar just yet, but defintely a front bar 7/8 to 1 1/8". 13" wheels with r-comps are the defacto standard in CSP. Cold air intakes are not worth the effort IMHO, there is no where to draw "cold" air from. Cat back is defintely good for a few HP.

There is a TON of info on Miata.net, check out Andy Hollis's build of his STS2 car, lots of stuff can be applied to your CSP car.

Welcome and good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: '97 Miata - upgrade / fix suggestions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:58 pm 
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ColnOConnell wrote:
Okay, Sean and I will be running our '97 Miata this year and it needs a new clutch. Considering that it has 140k miles and everything other than brakes and tires were put on in Japan, what should we consider changing and with what? We could use a little advice.
    Clutch & flywheel
    Shocks/springs/bushings
    sway bars
    wheels and race tires
    cold air intake
    cat back
What would you do? We promise not to win any races after the upgrades :lol:

The plan is to run CSP.


How much money do you want to spend? :D

Clutch/Flywheel - If you aren't planning on any power adders any time in the future, I'd recommend just getting a Mazda OEM replacement, saving this money for better suspension. If you just wanna spend more money, ACT will sell you a good calf building device, Clutchnet or Spec have entry level units that should be fine with stock pedal feel. My "fiber carbon" Clutchnet is a bit chattery at low speeds and annoying in a daily driving environment. If I end up needing to replace it, I'll probably go with the Spec offering since I'm hearing good things about them. As for flywheel, IMO, they aren't worth the $$$ asked for them, however in CSP where your not allowed power adders, every HP counts, and they will free up a couple HP and slightly better acceleration.

Shocks/Springs/Bushings - I'd reccomend coilovers, the good economical choice is Koni's and ground controls. I and Ryan are running the Bilstein PSS9 system modified to work on a an NA. The only problem with them, is they come with "less than optimal" spring rates. And the spring perches do not take the standard ERS springs. You have to go with the metric (H&R) race springs if you wanna change rates. Of course by the time you bought the PSS9s, the required NB top mounts and replacement springs it ends up being a pretty expensive setup. Alot of people run and like Teins and they come in various from mild to wild. But it is currently still a twin tube dampner, same as a Koni. Bilsteins and JIC are monotube, the JIC look great on paper, but some question the quality/durability. There are some more expensive/obscure choices that I don't know much about. On a 140K mile car, bushing are definitely a good idea.

Swaybars - Go with one of the big hollow front bars and either stock or no RSB. Don't bother with an aftermarket RSB.

Wheels/Race tires - 13x8s are a good choice for CSP. Unfortunatley, Diamond steel wheels will not fit over your car's brakes. Rumor has it that the Circle racing ones will, but when I talked to them, they claimed that Diamond gets their 13" wheels from Circle, so there shouldn't be any difference. That leaves you with Rota RBs (somewhat hard to get but a great value), Panasports (much more expensive, but a great, light, strong, wheel, also somewhat hard to come by) Then there are the custom guys (Real/Kodiak) which are a confusing mixed bag of results/opnions and expensive. After making your wheel selection, get the widest stickiest tire you can justify.

Cold Air Intake - I hear the Racing Beat one actually makes a couple HP, but they are very proud of it. Its an expensive few HP just like a lightened flywheel.

Exhaust - same as everything else, lots of money for a couple HP. Basically, they just make more noise. Brand doesn't really matter much. On my 210 whp supercharged Miata, I still only picked up 5 hp from a cat-back. The factory header is pretty good unless you have a 99-00, so not much gain there either.

I'm of the opnion that you should spend money in this priority if you want to lower autocross lap times:

1. good race rubber
2. good light/wide wheels
3. good suspension
4. good aggressive alignment
5. cat-back exhaust
6. clutch/flywheel
7. CAI

The only reason the alignment is 4th is because suspension changes will affect that. So if your going to change suspension, wait till afterward to get aligned. Otherwise alignment is right after tires.


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 Post subject: Re: '97 Miata - upgrade / fix suggestions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:47 pm 
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Les Davis wrote:
Wheels/Race tires - 13x8s are a good choice for CSP. Unfortunatley, Diamond steel wheels will not fit over your car's brakes.


I think with a spacer, the Diamonds fit the later NA's. I have Diamonds and you are welcome to test fit one at an event. I also have Rota RB's, they are a good deal and can be found locally (WES?) but have a HUGE offset making the car a bit WIDE.

Also, the ACT Clutch isnt that bad on the leg. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: '97 Miata - upgrade / fix suggestions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:25 pm 
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Ryan Holton wrote:

Also, the ACT Clutch isnt that bad on the leg. :roll:


It has already been well established that "isn't that bad" for Ryan, is very different than "isn't that bad" for everyone else. :wink: Of course it really isn't terrible, just don't seem much point in putting up with it if you don't have to, especially in a regularly street driven car.


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 Post subject: Re: '97 Miata - upgrade / fix suggestions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:26 pm 
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Ryan Holton wrote:
Also, the ACT Clutch isnt that bad on the leg. :roll:


I wouldn't want it for my DD, but compared to the ACT 2600 we had in the Talon it's like butta! Besides after the launch I never even notice the effort.

The ACT has more clamping force than stock and will most likely last longer when abused.

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'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
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 Post subject: Re: '97 Miata - upgrade / fix suggestions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:29 pm 
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Les Davis wrote:
It has already been well established that "isn't that bad" for Ryan, is very different than "isn't that bad" for everyone else. :wink:


True dat! Manual steering isn't "that bad" according to Ryan, and neither is not having A/C. :shock:

Ryan will do almost anything to save a pound these days. :P

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)


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 Post subject: Re: '97 Miata - upgrade / fix suggestions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:40 pm 
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Location: Raleigh, NC
ColnOConnell wrote:
Okay, Sean and I will be running our '97 Miata this year and it needs a new clutch. Considering that it has 140k miles and everything other than brakes and tires were put on in Japan, what should we consider changing and with what? We could use a little advice.
    Clutch & flywheel
    Shocks/springs/bushings
    sway bars
    wheels and race tires
    cold air intake
    cat back
What would you do? We promise not to win any races after the upgrades :lol:

The plan is to run CSP.


$10,000 built 1.8 motor
$5,000 suspension upgrade
$3,000 powertrain upgrade
$2,000 tires and wheels
$20 SCCA rulebook (free download)

winning THSCC CSP - priceless :)

How much do you want to spend?

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner


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 Post subject: Re: '97 Miata - upgrade / fix suggestions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:46 pm 
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I err on the side of being stupid
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Location: Greenville, NC
Vincent Keene wrote:
Les Davis wrote:
It has already been well established that "isn't that bad" for Ryan, is very different than "isn't that bad" for everyone else. :wink:


True dat! Manual steering isn't "that bad" according to Ryan, and neither is not having A/C. :shock:

Ryan will do almost anything to save a pound these days. :P


Damn, you want me to bring a pretty pink bow for you helmet Vincent?

That clutch in the Miata is CAKE, I could drive it everyday no problem. I know that DSM ownership and the requisite ACT 2600 clutch has numbed my leg a bit but it aint that numb.

Stay tuned on Manual Steering, Kevin Butler is gonna be my guinea pig on that one! :twisted: Lots of peeps say its BETTER than power.

It also isnt gonna take $20k to win THSCC CSP in 06. All its gonna take is a damn good driver in a mildly prepped car. IMHO, its a toss up but Im still banking on the red white and blue :)

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 Post subject: Re: '97 Miata - upgrade / fix suggestions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:53 pm 
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jimpastorius wrote:
$10,000 built 1.8 motor
winning THSCC CSP - priceless

Or
$350 donation to me for the following suggestion
+
$3,995 V8 swap kit
+
$3,395 GT-40 crate engine
+
$2,250 6 speed
+
$10 to buy your own trophy

No longer giving a rat's ass about CSP - TRULY priceless! :twisted:

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http://www.v8mongrel.com/


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:36 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:42 pm
Posts: 408
Location: Pinehurst
Great info guys. Thanks.

First, money is a consideration. A couple grand is what I was figuring for clutch and suspension. Maybe a bit more in the spirit of only doing it once if I get any 'you gotta do this' input from this thread.
Second, the clutch has got to be first. It's only good for granny starts at this point. Your input on clutch and flywheel is a lot of help.

Last, unless I run the BMW, there's going to be thee of us driving it this summer so it's going to get a lot of track time. Let me know if that changes your advice.

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Colin O'Connell

'94 BMW NASA SPEC 3
'02 F350 tow vehicle (not bad for a tow vehicle)
'97 Miata STO (autoX and sunny day spoils vehicle)
'97 BMW 328i (loaner to the kids when their cars don't work vehicle)
'05 Toyota Highlander


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:15 pm 
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If no major maintainance has been performed I'd suggest changing the timing belt, idler pully and waterpump. The timing belt was supposed to be changed at 60K and it makes sense to change the waterpump while you are in there since it's behind the timing belt. If you haven't already done so, sign up for Mazda's grassroots racing support. It's free and you can buy any OEM part or spec Miata part for less than what the dealer pays, one of the best deals around!

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there's no glory for going slow.


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 Post subject: Re: '97 Miata - upgrade / fix suggestions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:46 pm 
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Ryan Holton wrote:
Stay tuned on Manual Steering, Kevin Butler is gonna be my guinea pig on that one! :twisted: Lots of peeps say its BETTER than power.


Manual steering in a Miata is awesome. It is heavier but not bad at all. Only time I really notice the difference is when slowly moving with sticky tires. Get rid of the power steering it is just extra weight.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:49 am 
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ColnOConnell wrote:
Second, the clutch has got to be first. It's only good for granny starts at this point. Your input on clutch and flywheel is a lot of help.


Flywheel? Hands down Fidanza, good price and great reliability.

Clutch? Think about it like this, how much torque does your Miata make? Yeah, not much :cry: I would go with something not far from stock, its just overkill. Dont get me wrong, I love my ACT but its a bit more than needed. I do like the fact I can do 5-6k launches and not smell the first bit of clutch slip. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Flywheel/Clutch
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:49 pm 
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I agree with Ryan. If you're gonna spend the bucks on a light flywheel, get a stock clutch and mate it up to a Fidanza flywheel. Total: about $450., including the release bearing and pilot bearing. About 8 lbs. lighter than stock.

If you decide to do the Aluminium flywheel, get prepared before you start the project. First, have an oven available! Depending on the tolerances of the flywheel bore and the crank, an Aluminium flywheel may not fit the crank boss cold! Be prepared to heat it to around 150-200F in the oven before it will slip on the crank. Then work fast to get the bolts snugged up before it cools.

Next, all Aluminum Flywheels are tapped with Metric Standard threads, rather than Metric Fine Threads as used on the stock cast iron flywheel. You will need to get M8 X 1.25 X 20mm long (metric equiv. to GRADE eight) bolts for attaching the clutch cover. I used Grade 8 Socket Head Cap Screws 3/4" long.

Also, get a bottle of Loctite 262 (the High-Strength red stuff). This is real important when you are working with relatively coarse threads that absolutely cannot become loose. Apply to each clutch cover bolt as you insert them, then work like hell to get them all homed in and torqued. You have about 5 minutes to get it done before the stuff starts to set up.

How 'bout this: Lose the A/C system. It's worth 37 lbs. !

Les is right about the wheels. Get 13 X 8's and some 235-45 R-comps.

Suspension? How much do you want to spend? If you're not going to track the car, coil-overs are an expensive luxury. You might consider the Eibach Pro set-up for $200. After all, when Dustin Fredrickson can routinely beat me and the CSP crowd in his STOCK Miata, I've decided that driver improvement is more important than coil-overs right now.

As for the CSP CHampionship, it's too early to tell, but I like Vincent's chances. I never beat him in 2005, so... :?

Did I cover everything?

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