THSCC Forums

Time for a new thread on this subject.

I went karting last night at Rush Hour for my first time out. Thanks Brian for setting this thing up.

It was fun, and Brian arranged for us to get a 5-10-10 minute arrangement I think. That works out to 25 minutes of kart time if I added right. Not bad for $35, including head sock and use of their helmets.

I would love to hear tips for going faster there from some of you guys that are starting to figure this course and the karts out.

Miles

Don't use the brake - unless you have to avoid hitting somebody.

Don't slide the kart when you're in or exiting the corner.

Don't put a death grip on the steering wheel. Ouch.

Don't hit the walls. Ouch

Be hydrated just enough that you can still avoid peeing on yourself.

Eric and I were there yesterday, too. Probably earlier than you.

Eric got a 32.7 and me a 33.0, IIRC. We had a guy giving us pointers who is a former Formula 3 driver and looking to get a Formula Atlantic ride this year (Scott Bulger, he works there in some sales capacity).

You may need to use the brakes in turn one depending on your style. I do. No brakes required otherwise, but occasional *very* light breathes of the throttle are a very good thing. Experiment with lines that let you carry a constant arc without getting the kart "bound" up. You'll feel it.

The chicane doesn't require brakes. If you're a light person (150 or less) you can actually just pendulum the kart through there with no brakes and without lifting. The kart seemed to bind up too much with my heavy butt in there (200) when trying that. I would breathe big going in and get myself setup for a tidy exit then full throttle through. Seemed to work well.

Best thing you can do is do lots of stints and experiment. Or watch someone fast. You can hear when they breathe the throttle.



--Donnie

Kevin's suggestions are all good.

Miles, there is no one right way to be fast in karts, just like in other forms of driving - experiment with different techniques and figure out what matches your talent. You can find three really fast people who drive three different ways (e.g., loose & sliding, smooth w/ little rotation, brakes, no brakes, lifts, etc). In fact, yesterday, they were telling us the three fastest drivers there all have varying lines, brake/lift points, and driving styles (i.e., sliding or locked down).

Generally speaking, Kevin's advice is the best as far as being smooth and minimizing the times you are scrubbing off speed. This is especially true when exiting a corner with these karts since they have no power. If you need to brake, rotate, or slide the kart to scrub enough speed to make a corner it's best to do it well before the apex. This sounds sounds rather obvious, but a common mistake in karting (and driving) is to be pushing on corner exit, thus you're scrubbing speed and doing damage control to avoid hitting the wall (or you hit the wall) - in low horsepower karts this is a killer. So, the answer is to set up properly so you can be full throttle well before the apex. This can be best done by setting yourself up via a wider line or often just a light lift.

I'm not good enough to be smooth, but I try my best to minimize my hacky inputs and often use a minor amount of corner entry rotation to all me to be on the gas early. The karts, while much of it is "foot to the floor" at Rush Hour can really teach you the importance & benefit of subtle adjustments in your hand & footwork. For example, it's often amazing how effective and how much faster you can be by doing various throttle lifts (e.g., short, small, long & lazy) to get the kart to go through features faster than if you going bombing in and sliding all over the place. Just like, autox, we often feel that to be faster one has to be matted everywhere.

If you go to any kart track enough you'll find that conditions change each time you go to a particular track. It's critical to not be so rigid in your thinking that (for example) I should always be full-throttel through section x or y...sometimes you'll need to lift or doing other things to maximize your speed for the conditions. If you can start to be very flexible and rely on the "feel" you develop that helps you adjust to changing conditions, then the karts can be an awesome learning tool that can greatly improve your overall driving skill.

I enjoy driving the karts and it's fun. One of the biggest things that helped me have fun was to enjoy the competition with my friends, but not really worry about being the fastest or get down if I couldn't beat someone's time. My primary focus out there is to focus on the three key principles of driving for me 1) vision, 2) imput smoothness, and 3) initiating turn-in at the right time. As long as I'm do well and making progress on those things I'm not too worried that Donnie or somebody else just woodshedded me. Those lessons will translate back to the car and ultimately make me a better driver (or help me to suck less).

FWIW, at the Rush Hour track, I can make a lap without brakes, but feel that I'm quicker if I use a little brake for turn #1, and then use an elongated lift entering the hairpin chicane before the long straight. They told us yesterday that the fast guys can do it flat and pendulum through those features. Using that techique I can only do it right about 1 out of 10 times. Using the longer lift to induce a lazy but controlled rotation is better for me, it allows me to stay on line and be full throttle well before the hairpin. As mentioned before, that technique may not work for me the next time I'm there. I'm sure there are about 10 different ways to get through that section so it should be fun to hear other's comments.

Miles, I hope that was the type of info you were looking for.

Happy Holidays to all,
Eric

While we were waiting to run, I saw several people taking beautiful lines through Turn 1 with no brakes. But I spent all of my practice session and half of qualifying trying to figure that out, but didn't do it once without passing the apex in a lurid slide. Finally I resigned to giving a stab of the brakes and that made it a lot easier.

I had talked to "Scoot", the track "pro" last Sat, and he said he does a pendulum through the chicane. I basically spent the entire time yesterday trying to do that right, and all but once or twice I killed all my speed for corner exit (and I couldn't tell you what I did different those times). Scoot and I look to weigh about the same, so I either need to figure out the trick or try something different- I'm favoring the latter.

I'm glad to hear that I wasn't the only one lifting slightly for other corners. I didn't have this problem on Saturday, but last night I could just not hit the 2nd apexes of Turns 2 and, um, 5 (the long right sweeper) without a little lift.

I'm new to this, so it's interesting to hear other people's techniques/stories!

_________________
Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

Hmmm... without lifting you say... (making mental note)

I was sliding it into the chicane (off the throttle), and then just trying to be smooth/early on the right/ left to get out of it efficiently. I'd be at full throttle once I was turning back to the right after the entry.

I think I got the no-brake pitch into turn 1 right once. Most other times I either had to tap the brake at the apex or killed too much momentum and didn't track out far enough (going too slow).

My favorite part is the left sweeper/short straight/left sweeper/right 180 in the middle of the track. Speed is fun! Turn 1 and the chicane remind me too much of Jim P. autox courses (just not as tight).

That seemed to work the best for me. As for the going into turn 1 without touching the brakes. I tried it once and then decided to tap the brakes. I still think that is where I was losing most of my time because I was being too careful not to slide much and not pushing far enough in.

_________________
2010 Honda Fit Sport
Couple of bicycles

FWIW, "Scoot" is Scott Bulger.

The G-Force guys said that cold but high humidity is when these karts make the most power...enough that Eric is right, you'll be adjusting things you may not normally do.

It's a good track. It's unfortunate that they won't have 9HP karts for about a year (according to Scott). I'd personally enjoy it more if there were more brake zones, and with 9HP there certainly would be.


--Donnie

I pulled some of this over from a post I made on one of the other threads:

One thing that I learned last night was the tires on the karts have been on there since they opened (14 days ago). The owners said that they would be changing them today (as their tire changer had just arrived yesterday). They said the tires were past due to be changed. We were estimating that the tires had probably gone through about 500 heat cycles in that time frame. It was amazing just how quick the tires would loose heat (and thus loose GRIP)!

Some of us watched the track workers running their "end of night" sessions. We saw no break lights when the guys had open track in front of them. However, they feathered the throttle alot. I had problems with the back end "hopping" on the big right handed turn in the middle of the track. One of the track workers told me after our session was over that I needed to feather the throttle more to prevent the "hopping" and I would knock time off my laps (wish I had that info before we were done driving!!).

What works on one kart doesn't always work on another kart since there are many variables (tire grip, tire pressure, power output from engine, etc). The best info that I got was be easy with inputs to the breaks and the throttle. I never really thought about upsetting the chassis of a kart, but I was informed it does indeed make a difference.

I didn't use breaks on turn 1 (only because I watched a driver from an earlier group take that approach and he was the fastest in his group). However, there's very little margin for error with that approach.

As for the chicane, I drove hard into the left hand turn just before the chicane, lifted to about 30% throttle going into the chicane with a super late apex (trying to keep the left side of the kart close to the gaurd rail). I'd then start the right hand turn and about 90 degrees into the turn, I would start to roll back into the throttle. I struggle on the point at which I would get on the throttle and how quickly I got on the throttle. Too fast or too quick and the rear would step out and the kart would just bog down. But, when timed correctly, the kart hooked up and I would roll right into the left hander and stay tight on the left hand gaurd rail for about 2/3s of the front stretch. Then I would actually make a quick right steering input (to fall in where the pit lane entrance was) followed by a quick left steering input with throttle lift going into turn one. As the rear end stepped out, I'd counter steer and start to roll back into the throttle as I went through the turn. Watching the track guys run last night, I saw this same approach through turn 1 (just a whole lot smoother than I was!!).

I can't wait until we go again!

_________________
Rob Harvey
919-697-5485
1997 BMW M3
1992 Acura Integra (Simon)

Miles,

My best advice for going fast is to stay right behind me.

Dave

_________________
Dave Phillips
78 Porsche 911 SC

But seriously folks,

One thing I have learned about this type of kart with a centrifugal clutch, is the need to be on the power as early in a turn as possible. Because the engines momentum is not preserved by means of a big heavy fly wheel, and the engine revs have to reach the point of engaging the clutch, it takes longer than you would think to get power to the tires.

For this reason, many experienced drivers carry throttle under braking. Both VIR and Rush Hour have asked that this technique not be used, as it is obviously hard on the brakes and clutches. However, one can modify the technique to be on the gas as early as possible. In essence, "slow in, fast out" is even more important that in your street car.

Now, as soon as you all figure out how to not use the brakes at all, my point will be moot. I for one, couldn't make the no brakes thing work into #1.

_________________
Dave Phillips
78 Porsche 911 SC

Note that these karts use *wet* clutches, not traditional dry centrifugal clutches. Because of that, not only are you harder on the clutch and brake, you are also slower if you "grind" (hold full throttle while braking). You will heat up the clutch fluid to the point your clutch will not engage as quickly until it cools and thus you *still* aren't getting full power down.

Key tip to these things is learning to feather the throttle without backing out completely. Since every kart is a little different, this can be hard to learn, but it can be done. This is especially important at Rush Hour since there are basically no brake zones anyway.

But what I'm saying is that with Sodi karts, it's not just because of wear and tear that they don't want you to do it. It *may* be a bit faster for you at first, but it is definitely *not* the fastest way around.


--Donnie