Gas Prices Going UP!!

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:00 am

scottjohnson wrote:

Somewhere someone seemed to imply that gas demand = constant (ish).

That means no one was planning to travel on Labor Day weekend? No trips to the beach, etc?

That's good, because they might not find gas to fill up the family truckster along the way.

Gas prices would have been up 10-15 cents per gallon this weekend because it's Labor Day, not we've got a double whammy.

Tell the folks planning to attend the *might-be-cancelled* test and tune that everything is dandy.

Scott

Demand is obviously subject to short-term fluctuations, which I have already clarified. However, the bulk of gasoline use is not subject to much fluctuation. Pleasure driving is not the driving factor in vehicle miles and hence gasoline consumption.

Michael Westerfield · **Posted:** Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:17 am

I love this thread.... there are tears in my eyes... Although we are arguing... for once it isn't about autocrossing, an event, or club rules. What a great day.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:37 am

Ryan Holton wrote:

If the price would have stayed at ~$2.50/gal and been froze there but it was reported that the next delivery of fuel is unknown. Would you have filled all your gas cans up? Maybe go to Wal Mart and buy a few more gas cans and fill 'em up too?

You mean that everyone didn't do that yesterday/this morning anyhow? :lol:

Wes Eargle · **Joined:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am **Posts:** 3683

I don't know about you all, but its getting all Lord of the Flies and stuff down there, and in Hotlanta too. It might be high time to hit the Advance Auto and get some locking gas caps to keep some individual from using a hose and a bucket to steal $50 from me.

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

I jokingly said something the other day about how civilization's going to collapse with these high gas prices. Who woulda thought?

I have to go fill up a few gas cans and diesel cans for our lawn mowers and tractor - what's funny is that I kindof dread it, because it's going to look like I'm a panicky asshole, too. :lol:

Les Davis · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:04 pm **Posts:** 2059

One funny thing I observed, the gas station next to my work, the closest to the airport is usually the highest price in town. We theorize this is because so many rental cars get filled up there. Well, yesterday when I was leaving work with my needle pointing at E, by the way, I noticed there price was only $0.10 more than it had been earlier in the week at $2.89. So yes, I did fill up, at the gas station I usually try to avoid, but I didn't fill up any earlier than I would have normally.

Does anyone else support Rich's opinion here? Sounds to me like he is fighting a one man battle, but I suppose he's used to that. :wink:

Firstly, a $0.25-0.50 price increase on gasoline is a 10-20% increase, this does not constitute "gouging" the gas station owners would need to increase the price three or fourfold to constitute serious gouging. So like $7.50-10.00 a gallon. I'm not sure what you think the price fixing would accomplish, especially without rationing. But that has been pointed out by several people already who seem to have a much better understand of basic macro economics than you. There is obviously some elasticity in gasoline demand, obviously all demand is not elastic, but certainly some. In my case alone, I have already started driving my car in a manner which would conserve fuel. I also have the option of working from home and I considered it. I didn't do it today, but may tomorow, or definitely next week if things get worse. I could dramatically effect my own demand for gasoline I could probably cut it to 1/10 my normal usage if necessary and still be a productive member of society, so not everyone would have as much flexibility, but I'm certainly not alone in the ability. Multiply my choices by a couple hundred thousand people, and you have a very significant decrease in consumption. Another example, I saw a guy in my building riding his Harely to work today. Why? Because the weather's nice? Nope, because it gets 45 mpg as opposed to his 15 mpg SUV he normally drives. There are alot of such choices available to people that will become more and more apparent to them, the higher the prices go. A 20% increase will only have a moderate effect on those choices, a 200% increase will create alot of individual creativity and do alot more to decrease immediate demand and therefor increase immediate supply. Which is what you really want to happen in a crisis. So my position, gouge at will gas station owners, gouge at will, you haven't done so nearly enough, how's that for a difference of opinion. :wink:

Wes Eargle · **Joined:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am **Posts:** 3683

"Gouging" is an interesting word.

Traditionally, gas station owners artificially raise prices before three day weekends, like this one coming up. People just accept this. Is this a gouge? Nope, just doing business.

But is this:

Maybe, maybe not. But there ain't a whole lot of gasoline going into Atlanta, where this pic was taken either. And the station owner probably doesn't know when the next truck will arrive.

$5 for a bottle of water? That's gouging.

Jason Mauldin · **Posted:** Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:09 am

Les Davis wrote:

Does anyone else support Rich's opinion here?

I agree with his statement that our local government made a mistake in the way they handled this. They did nothing but make the issue worse.

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:20 am

Les Davis wrote:

Does anyone else support Rich's opinion here? Sounds to me like he is fighting a one man battle, but I suppose he's used to that. :wink:

Firstly, a $0.25-0.50 price increase on gasoline is a 10-20% increase, this does not constitute "gouging" the gas station owners would need to increase the price three or fourfold to constitute serious gouging. So like $7.50-10.00 a gallon. I'm not sure what you think the price fixing would accomplish, especially without rationing. But that has been pointed out by several people already who seem to have a much better understand of basic macro economics than you.

My point is that the announcement created an artificial spike in short term demand. The supply situation has not changed and, unless there is some sort of action taken to forcibly alter the demand, the current situation is one where a small number of gas stations will profit at the loss of thousands of people. Businesses will be hit hard. Do you think the George and the other mobile glass suppliers are going to shut down today? No, they are going to spend more money on fuel. So we continue to deplete the supply, yet do nothing about prices. Allowing random, unimpeded, short term price spikes to dictate demand that the governor's announcement helped foster just seems really dumb to me. An active solution seems better to me, and since we cannot do much about use at this point with no system in place to determine who will get gas, I think a price freeze to stop an economic hit would work far better than the current lack of plan.

As for the comment on my understanding of economics, I am sure there are those that know a whole lot more. However, I contribute to a quarterly industry journal an article and detailed supporting data on fuel prices, vehicle usage and transportation trends. The facts that I showed you earlier are from that. I believe that I most likely have a deeper understanding of the impact of fuel price fluctuations than most.

As Todd and Steve pointed out earlier, somone is in the middle on these increases.

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:21 am

Wes Eargle wrote:

"Gouging" is an interesting word.

Traditionally, gas station owners artificially raise prices before three day weekends, like this one coming up. People just accept this. Is this a gouge? Nope, just doing business.

But is this:

Maybe, maybe not. But there ain't a whole lot of gasoline going into Atlanta, where this pic was taken either. And the station owner probably doesn't know when the next truck will arrive.

And how far are we from this situation here? I am not in anyway advocating that gas stations should not be able to change prices for 3 day weekends and the like. However, this is not a normal situation, and the inaction of the state's elected officials is what troubles me. Why tell everyone there is a problem then do nothing about it? :whoknows:

Immediately after 9/11, around the site of Solo II nationals, there were reports of gas going up to $4-$5/gallon. The Kansas AD threaten to prosecute that as price gouging.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:13 pm

Listen, Mike Easley just got us a freakin' Lotto, he doesnt have time to mess with gas prices :cry:

Wes Eargle · **Joined:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am **Posts:** 3683

Mike Easley wrote:

STATEMENT GIVEN TODAY BY GOV. EASLEY CONCERNING GASOLINE SUPPLY IN NORTH CAROLINA

THE TWO MAJOR PIPELINES THAT FURNISH GASOLINE TO MANY STATES, INCLUDING NORTH CAROLINA, HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY HURRICANE KATRINA AND ARE CURRENTLY WITHOUT ELECTRICITY. THEY SERVICE NORTH CAROLINA AND 8-10 OTHER STATES.
90 PERCENT OF OUR GAS COMES FROM THESE PIPELINES AND RIGHT NOW THEY ARE NOT OPERATIONAL.
SUPPLIERS GENERALLY HAVE A WEEK OR SO OF SUPPLY. THEY HAVE BEEN SHUT DOWN SINCE THE HURRICANE.
THE PIPELINES NEED ELECTRIC SUPPLY AND THE REFINERIES THAT PRODUCE GASOLINE NEED TO MAKE URGENT REPAIRS ALSO ARE WITHOUT ELECTRICITY. THE REFINERIES THAT PRODUCE GASOLINE NEED TO MAKE URGENT REPAIRS.
CONSEQUENTLY, WE DO NOT KNOW THE EXTENT OF THE PROBLEM, BUT WE DO KNOW THAT THERE WILL BE A SIGNIFCANT LOSS OF GASOLINE IN THE SOUTHEAST, AT LEAST IN THE SHORT TERM UNTIL THE ELECTRICITY IS RESTORED.
THIS IS NOT ONLY A STATE PROBLEM, THIS IS ALSO A REGIONAL AND A NATIONAL PROBLEM. WE ARE HOPING THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY WILL TAKE SOME ACTION AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. I HAVE TRIED TO GET DIRECTION FROM DOE BUT THEY HAVE NOT YET RESPONDED.
IN THE MEANTIME, I AM ASKING ALL NORTH CAROLINIANS TO CONSERVE GAS. SOME STATIONS ARE ALREADY OUT. WAIT FOR MORE INFORMATION BEFORE MAKING LABOR DAY TRAVEL PLANS.
WE ARE TAKING STEPS TO ENSURE THAT EMERGENCY VEHICLES HAVE THE SUPPLIES THAT THEY NEED, POLICE, FIRE AND RESCUE.
I AM IMMEDIATELY SUSPENDING ALL NON-ESSENTIAL STATE GOVERNMENT TRAVEL. I AM ASKING STATE EMPLOYEES TO CARPOOL WHEREVER POSSIBLE.
I AM ALSO ASKING ALL OUR CITIZENS TO BE SMART ABOUT THEIR FUEL CONSUMPTION.
I AM ASKING THEM TO CARPOOL IF THEY CAN AND TO LIMIT NON-ESSENTIAL ROAD TRIPS.
WE ARE NOT OUT OF GAS, BUT WE ARE RUNNING LOW.
WE MUST TAKE STEPS TO CONSERVE OUR RESOURCES WHILE WE LEARN THE FULL EXTENT OF THE PROBLEMS AND WHILE WASHINGTON WORKS TOWARD A REGIONAL AND NATIONAL STRATEGY.
WITH CAREFUL USE OF PRECIOUS FUEL, CONSUMERS CAN HELP US WEATHER THIS LATEST STORM.
NORTH CAROLINA UNDERSTANDS HURRICANES. WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH THEM AND WE KNOW THAT WE WILL WEATHER THIS ONE AS WE HAVE IN THE PAST. WE KNOW THEY CAUSE DISTRUPTION. WE JUST NEED TO KNOW AS MUCH AS WE CAN AND PLAN.

Sorry that the governor's Caps Lock was stuck.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:45 pm

Thats pretty official sounding and scary.

I predict over 50% of stations to be out of gas sometime during the weekend. I dont think this is a problem that can be solved that quick.

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

I guess I'm going to have to hide Dustin's CRX in case he comes to get it this weekend. :twisted:

Rich Anderson · **Posted:** Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:06 pm

Wes Eargle wrote:

Mike Easley wrote:

STATEMENT GIVEN TODAY BY GOV. EASLEY CONCERNING GASOLINE SUPPLY IN NORTH CAROLINA

THE TWO MAJOR PIPELINES THAT FURNISH GASOLINE TO MANY STATES, INCLUDING NORTH CAROLINA, HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY HURRICANE KATRINA AND ARE CURRENTLY WITHOUT ELECTRICITY. THEY SERVICE NORTH CAROLINA AND 8-10 OTHER STATES.
90 PERCENT OF OUR GAS COMES FROM THESE PIPELINES AND RIGHT NOW THEY ARE NOT OPERATIONAL.
SUPPLIERS GENERALLY HAVE A WEEK OR SO OF SUPPLY. THEY HAVE BEEN SHUT DOWN SINCE THE HURRICANE.
THE PIPELINES NEED ELECTRIC SUPPLY AND THE REFINERIES THAT PRODUCE GASOLINE NEED TO MAKE URGENT REPAIRS ALSO ARE WITHOUT ELECTRICITY. THE REFINERIES THAT PRODUCE GASOLINE NEED TO MAKE URGENT REPAIRS.
CONSEQUENTLY, WE DO NOT KNOW THE EXTENT OF THE PROBLEM, BUT WE DO KNOW THAT THERE WILL BE A SIGNIFCANT LOSS OF GASOLINE IN THE SOUTHEAST, AT LEAST IN THE SHORT TERM UNTIL THE ELECTRICITY IS RESTORED.
THIS IS NOT ONLY A STATE PROBLEM, THIS IS ALSO A REGIONAL AND A NATIONAL PROBLEM. WE ARE HOPING THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY WILL TAKE SOME ACTION AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. I HAVE TRIED TO GET DIRECTION FROM DOE BUT THEY HAVE NOT YET RESPONDED.
IN THE MEANTIME, I AM ASKING ALL NORTH CAROLINIANS TO CONSERVE GAS. SOME STATIONS ARE ALREADY OUT. WAIT FOR MORE INFORMATION BEFORE MAKING LABOR DAY TRAVEL PLANS.
WE ARE TAKING STEPS TO ENSURE THAT EMERGENCY VEHICLES HAVE THE SUPPLIES THAT THEY NEED, POLICE, FIRE AND RESCUE.
I AM IMMEDIATELY SUSPENDING ALL NON-ESSENTIAL STATE GOVERNMENT TRAVEL. I AM ASKING STATE EMPLOYEES TO CARPOOL WHEREVER POSSIBLE.
I AM ALSO ASKING ALL OUR CITIZENS TO BE SMART ABOUT THEIR FUEL CONSUMPTION.
I AM ASKING THEM TO CARPOOL IF THEY CAN AND TO LIMIT NON-ESSENTIAL ROAD TRIPS.
WE ARE NOT OUT OF GAS, BUT WE ARE RUNNING LOW.
WE MUST TAKE STEPS TO CONSERVE OUR RESOURCES WHILE WE LEARN THE FULL EXTENT OF THE PROBLEMS AND WHILE WASHINGTON WORKS TOWARD A REGIONAL AND NATIONAL STRATEGY.
WITH CAREFUL USE OF PRECIOUS FUEL, CONSUMERS CAN HELP US WEATHER THIS LATEST STORM.
NORTH CAROLINA UNDERSTANDS HURRICANES. WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH THEM AND WE KNOW THAT WE WILL WEATHER THIS ONE AS WE HAVE IN THE PAST. WE KNOW THEY CAUSE DISTRUPTION. WE JUST NEED TO KNOW AS MUCH AS WE CAN AND PLAN.

Sorry that the governor's Caps Lock was stuck.

Translation: I am telling you all that we will be out of gas, am doing what I can for the government, but screw the rest of you, have fun with the wolves! Nice job. Someone bump this thread back to the top for me at election time please. :roll:

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