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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:05 am 
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From GrandPrix.com: "The FIA has issued a press release which aims to justify the actions of its officials at Indianapolis last weekend. The FIA often uses a question and answer format. It is worth mentioning, however, that the federation is asking the questions and supplying the answers in the latest press release and it is not an actual interview by an independent journalist, although this is perhaps how it appears."


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:36 pm 
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David Teague wrote:
Quote:
From GrandPrix.com: "The FIA has issued a press release which aims to justify the actions of its officials at Indianapolis last weekend. The FIA often uses a question and answer format. It is worth mentioning, however, that the federation is asking the questions and supplying the answers in the latest press release and it is not an actual interview by an independent journalist, although this is perhaps how it appears."



And just to show how stupid and out of touch they are, when I read the announcement I thought "boy, the guy (or white appliance :wink: ) asking the question has never seen an F1 race nor do they know anything about it to keep asking the same question again. :)

Michelin still sucks,


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:36 pm 
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Discussion point:

BAR will get all of the heat from Michelin due to their gas tank incident earlier this year, the punishment for which was six months of sitting in the corner.

They won't compete for the rest of the season.

Opinions?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:08 pm 
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Wes, you lost me. I can't remember the details of the Honda punishment over the tank issue. But are you saying that because of that incident and with them being one of the teams that didn't race that they will get a six month ban?

I think that if anything, reducing the number of teams on track is not going to happen if they do this logically (not sure if that will happen). If anything, they need to keep the cars on the track and racing.

I am guessing...

* Results of USGP will stand.
* Some type of penalty for Michelin itself (not sure what they can do other than cash penalty - payment to fans and or USGP organizers)?
* Michelin (and Bridgestone) will be "required" to bring at least two sets of tires to each race.
* Additional warning about providing tires that will work.
* Manf point reduction for Michelin teams (no affect on driver points). Most likely a percentage of current points so that teams with little or no points will not be affected as much.
* Some type of probation for the teams, but no bans.
* Maybe even X (?2+?) second penalty in qualifying for Michelin teams at the next race (push them down the grid).
* USGP will not count as a race for Michelin teams when it comes to engines (don't know if they can get away with this due to them being used for qualifying)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:13 pm 
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Richard Casto wrote:
Wes, you lost me. I can't remember the details of the Honda punishment over the tank issue. But are you saying that because of that incident and with them being one of the teams that didn't race that they will get a six month ban?


Because BAR was on probation for the early incident rumor is they will get hit harder with penalties.

Goodyear Speaks Out
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Bill King

There's been much sympathy expressed - and ever so rightfully - for F1 race fans during and following that debacle Sunday that the FIA persists in calling the United States Grand Prix. Also receiving notes of condolence are the Hulman-George family and the hard working staff at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway that opened its doors to the Formula 1 circus just three weeks after staging the Indy 500 - no mean feat.

But the old "tire guy" in me has been roused at the abuse heaped upon Michelin. Yes, they screwed up. The makers of the most mysteriously complex and vulnerable component of a modern racecar missed it; but I'll wager, not by much.

During my six-year stint as PR manager for Goodyear Racing, we understood that nobody pays any attention to tires until something bad happens to one of them.

The worst case scenario is unexplainable failures during pre-race sessions - just what happened to Michelin Friday. There is no bigger headache, because it throws the whole race weekend into jeopardy.

Goodyear pulled its new radial tire from competition following the first practice session for the 1989 Daytona 500 when both Dale Earnhardt and Bill Elliott lost right fronts and hit the wall. Elliott broke his wrist. "We are not in this to hurt our friends," said Leo Mehl, then head of worldwide racing for Goodyear. We had a slow, hard back-up tire that we offered. Everyone but Dave Marcis switched to Hoosier for the week and the show went on with Darrell Waltrip winning his only Daytona 500.

We had similar problems when we pulled our tires from the Coca-Cola 600. Hoosier assumed the sole-supplier role and Goodyear tire technicians helped our seriously understaffed competitor mount tires for the race.

Later in the Goodyear-Hoosier NASCAR tire war, both companies were disqualified for width irregularities. In those cases, the other company stepped up and supplied the field.

In 1985, Goodyear withdrew its new radial from the Michigan 500 over safety concerns, causing CART to postpone the race for a week. As sole supplier, we did not have a back-up. Big mistake.

However, the common thread through each of these tire calamities is that all parties - sanctioning body, track management, race teams, manufacturers - worked together to come up with a solution that allowed for a safe and competitive race.

That did not happen in the acrimonious political climate that had the Indianapolis Motor Speedway socked in for the weekend. The bottom line is that the FIA refused to consider any solution that would allow a full field to compete safely in the USGP Sunday.

"Compete" and "safely" are the operative words.

There would have been no "competition" had the Michelin teams pitted a half dozen times to change tires and no guarantee even then that a tire wouldn't fail.

That FIA competition director Charlie Whiting would suggest that the Michelin teams run at reduced speed through Turn 13 was irresponsible. To essentially mandate 20 to 40 mph closing speeds in the fastest corner in F1 racing with thousands of fans sitting outside the turn would have produced a criminally actionable situation should an incident have resulted in personal injury.

The very fact that the FIA would make such a suggestion shows a complete lack of knowledge of and/or disdain for U.S. laws concerning reckless endangerment. You can bet that the legal departments of Michelin, Toyota, Honda, BMW, Renault, DaimlerChrysler and Cosworth were fully aware of the slipperiness of that slope.

Any future FIA event on American soil will surely come under a legal microscope based upon the sanctioning body's heedless disregard for the safety of competitors and fans in making suggestions as to how to proceed over the weekend.

Subsequent actions by the FIA including dragging Michelin and its teams onto the World Motorsport Council mat next week are equally bizarre, given that FIA head Max Mosley claims to be a lawyer. The FIA is skirting on giving IMS attorneys all the ammunition needed to demand repayment of all fees should the sanctioning body materially punish the teams, an action that would tacitly admit that Formula 1 did not fulfill its contract with IMS.

In addition, the FIA has broken a cardinal rule of motorsport business. They have pilloried a major supplier - in this case Michelin, a $20bn a year corporation and arguably the best racing tire maker in the world.

As a tire guy, it breaks my heart.

As a 50-year Formula 1 fan, it breaks my heart.

As a fan of common sense and the elegant solution, it just pisses me off.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:16 pm 
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Richard Casto wrote:
I am guessing...

* Results of USGP will stand.
* Some type of penalty for Michelin itself (not sure what they can do other than cash penalty - payment to fans and or USGP organizers)?
* Michelin (and Bridgestone) will be "required" to bring at least two sets of tires to each race.
* Additional warning about providing tires that will work.
* Manf point reduction for Michelin teams (no affect on driver points). Most likely a percentage of current points so that teams with little or no points will not be affected as much.
* Some type of probation for the teams, but no bans.
* Maybe even X (?2+?) second penalty in qualifying for Michelin teams at the next race (push them down the grid).
* USGP will not count as a race for Michelin teams when it comes to engines (don't know if they can get away with this due to them being used for qualifying)


The problem as I see it is that several of your proposals directly help Ferrari. Which sucks donkey dung. But Mosely and Ecclestone have clung to that red teat for years now.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:19 pm 
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David Teague wrote:
Richard Casto wrote:
Wes, you lost me. I can't remember the details of the Honda punishment over the tank issue. But are you saying that because of that incident and with them being one of the teams that didn't race that they will get a six month ban?


Because BAR was on probation for the early incident rumor is they will get hit harder with penalties.


Ok, that is what I was thinking Wes was saying.

Never say never, but I don't think it is going to happen. I think that if they single out BAR a great deal it will not help things. I can see that they may strip more Manf points, but suspending teams is just going to make fans more angry.

Next to Ferrari, Honda (maybe Renault) has probably done more for F1 in the past than any other current player. Again if they are smart, they will dish out punishment that the teams can swallow. Otherwise, it just escalates the war (unless that is was Max wants)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:37 pm 
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Wes Eargle wrote:
The problem as I see it is that several of your proposals directly help Ferrari. Which sucks donkey dung. But Mosely and Ecclestone have clung to that red teat for years now.


Right. I mean it helps Jordan and Minardi as well, but who would care? It rewards Ferrari, but without naming them. Anyhow, I can't think of much they could do that wouldn't reward Ferrari in some way.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:37 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:16 am 
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Wow, what a discussion. Here's my take.

100% of the fault liles with Michelin. They had the same data as Bridgestone about the track (or, lack of data). Bridgestone produced a competitive tire which would last the length of the race. Michelin chose not to.

Not changing the course was 100% the correct thing to do. Why should the Bridgestone shod teams make concessions because the other team's equipment wasn't safe? Its a competition! Certainly fans suffered but have NO say in the event.

I also feel that the Michelin shod teams did the correct thing by pulling out of the race. None of the suggestions for slowing down seemed to be reasonable and its very important to error on the side of safety.

Remember too that teams are allowed to change tires for safety reasons. Michelin teams could have run 5 laps 9or whatever was safe) and changed tiers. Sure pretty boring but it was an option.

In short, I feel that Michelin failed. Bridgestone didn't.

Ron


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:17 am 
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So, do you honestly believe that FIA and F1 have zero responsibility in *not* putting on a race?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:30 am 
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Wes Eargle wrote:
So, do you honestly believe that FIA and F1 have zero responsibility in *not* putting on a race?


They weren't the ones who stopped it. I also read/heard somewhere that the FIA had both Michelin and Bridgestone test at Indy before the race and neither reported a problem. Did Michelin only run 9 laps?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:41 am 
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Its not their job to modify the rules because some teams have equipment that is not safe. And they did put on a race. Its notthe FIA or F1 responsibility to make sure the teams race. So indeed yes I feel 100% that is not their job to assure a race.

Now as for how to compensate the fans. I do believe there needs to be something done but again, its not the FIA or F1 job to make sure the fans are happy. Just as its not the SCCA's job or NASCAR's job to make sure the fans are satisfied. Those bodies, including the FIA, set up the rules for the event. Its up to the teams to follow those rules and race.

Whatwould you have the FIA do? Change the rules to suit teams who brought (through no fault oftheir own) equipment that was not suited to the race? Why bend the rules for just those teams?

Ron


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:57 am 
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No, it's their job to put on a race. Which they failed to do.

If you make the rules a la Messrs. Ecclestone and Moseley, then you can bend them appropriately. Or do you forget that Bridgestone rain incident several years ago? Oh yeah, that benefited Ferrari didn't it. Isn't it amazing that now Schumacher is third in points? And Ferrari is back in the hunt for manufacturers' points? Hmmmm.....

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:53 pm 
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I don't recall the incident. Is it the one where everyone was piling up on the front straight very heavy rain? Seems to me the only safe thing to do was to either stop the race or run several laps under yellow. As I also recall this incident had nothing to do with tires. It had to do with standing water. I was at Road America when they stopped a race when cars were crashing because they were hydroplaning. Had to do with the safety of the driver and not which tire they were running on.

Anyway, the FIA did put on a race. There was a winner. Its not the race we all wanted but then its not the FIA's job to insure how good a race it was.

the facts are: the teams using Michelins did not choose to race. Their equipment was deemed not safe to race according the the manufactuer. How is that an FIA problem?

No one complained when Michelin brought out a kick ass tire and their teams were doing really well this year. Why should they get special treatment when they mess up?

Ron


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