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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:13 am 
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An urgent meeting of Team Principals is summoned and somehow Jean Todt is not in attendence? Seems like he knew he would say no to all proposals but didn't have the courage to do it to the faces of his peers. What else would explain his absence? Pretty weak, if you ask me.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:45 pm 
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Interesting statement from Mr. Stoddart. It is good that people are speaking their mind. Especially those at the top.

It makes me wonder exactly what FIA brings to F1 and what the source of their power really is. Especially with the threats to pull FIA sanction from the US. What exactly does that mean to a race promoter or series organizer? And why should anyone care if FIA follows through with their threats?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:04 pm 
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Richard Casto wrote:
Especially with the threats to pull FIA sanction from the US. What exactly does that mean to a race promoter or series organizer? And why should anyone care if FIA follows through with their threats?


I read an excellent point on this issue. While NASCAR, CART, IRL, SCCA, ALMS, USAC and any of the other alphabet soup of sanctioning bodies cannot match the FIA on a one-on-one basis, it is not like there aren't enough players in this country to make a potential FIA withdrawal almost meaningless. The USA without the FIA is a much smaller for us loss than the FIA losing access to the world's largest economy.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:10 pm 
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F1 is first and foremost a business. Michelin screwed up and gambled on a power play to resolve the situation and it did not work. It would be patently unfair to allow the Michelin teams to qualify on the soft rubber and then allow them to change tires to race without substantial penalty. I also don't see how you can change the track layout the morning of a race. Remember, resurfaced or not it is the same track and Bridgestone did not have problems. I agree that Max Mosely is also to blame as he could have proposed a reasonable compromise, but I doubt that any compromise would have been accepted by the other teams as their goal is to discredit FIA management any time they can. (It is easy to discredit them as they are greedy and crooked) If I was in Ferrari's shoes, I would stand my ground and not allow any rule changes. It should have been up to Bernie and Max the Rottweiler to provide an acceptable compromise, but they wanted to embarrass the renegade teams.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:11 pm 
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RobLupella wrote:
Bridgestone did not have problems


That's why Chin's tire was changed on their first stop?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:11 pm 
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Wes Eargle wrote:
RobLupella wrote:
Bridgestone did not have problems


That's why Chin's tire was changed on their first stop?


And was it wear from turn 13 or debris or possibly just a bad tire?

At least one if not more drivers did run over debris on the track. Looking at 1 of the Ferrari's during its stop you could definetely see some hard wear. No doubt that track was hard on their tires too. But they lasted and did come prepared.

I'm glad Stoddart stepped up and at least tried to shed some light on what happened. But keep in mind he has a serious axe to grind with Mosley. So anything he can do to get Max fired I'm sure he would gladly do :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:27 pm 
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Graham Jagger wrote:
Wes Eargle wrote:
RobLupella wrote:
Bridgestone did not have problems


That's why Chin's tire was changed on their first stop?


And was it wear from turn 13 or debris or possibly just a bad tire?

At least one if not more drivers did run over debris on the track. Looking at 1 of the Ferrari's during its stop you could definetely see some hard wear. No doubt that track was hard on their tires too. But they lasted and did come prepared.

I'm glad Stoddart stepped up and at least tried to shed some light on what happened. But keep in mind he has a serious axe to grind with Mosley. So anything he can do to get Max fired I'm sure he would gladly do :wink:


He probably hit a Fosters can thrown by one of the fans of chicken French Tyres. I saw Barachello hit an Aquafina bottle. They lasted more than qualifying. I agree that this has a lot to do with the FIA fight with the teams, but in this case, they were wrong to try and pull the grandstand move. They should have raced. Apparantly, a bunch of the drivers thought so too. Kimi had to be coerced into stopping and someone said that they ran into Button in the airport and he was pretty disappointed.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:54 pm 
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I also thought it was interesting that Peter Winsor said on Wind Tunnel that he thought the problem with the Michelin tires was overstated. He didn't think it was as bad as they were letting on.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:21 pm 
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Below is Michelin's response. I emailed Michelin on Monday night about my dissapointment in how the USGP turned out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for contacting Michelin. We share your disappointment about the 2005 United States Grand Prix, and we hope the following facts will help you understand the situation more fully.

Michelin equipped teams did not participate in the Formula One Grand Prix at Indianapolis on Sunday, June 19, out of concern for driver safety. Michelin equips seven teams (14 cars) in Formula One. As a result of the race conditions, only three teams (six cars) on non-Michelin tires participated in the race.

During the weekend, it became obvious that there was a tire issue at the track. Two Toyota cars had rapid deflations on the left rear tire during Friday practice. Michelin technical teams in France and in Greenville, South Carolina, worked through the weekend to determine the source of the issue and to find a solution before the start of the race.

Formula One racing is one of the most demanding applications for tires in the world, equipping highly complex and technical vehicles that operate at speeds well over 200 mph. Tire regulations for the race are also very strict, severely limiting the tire solutions that can be brought to the race, used by the teams and also limiting tire maker access to the tracks and to tire testing. The circuit at Indianapolis had been resurfaced and diamond ground since last year's Grand Prix. Michelin was not allowed on-track testing on the new surface before the race weekend, and therefore had to make many critical assumptions about the new surface, race circuit and its interaction with the tires. Bridgestone (through its Firestone
brand) participates in the Indianapolis 500, which allowed experience with the new track surface prior to the F1 event.

Michelin, working with its partner teams, devised several solutions which would have allowed all teams to compete in the race. These solutions included airlifting in replacement tires from Spain which arrived in Indy early Sunday morning. However, FIA regulations would not allow the new tires to be used in the race.

Nine of the ten competing teams also suggested adding a chicane just before Turn 12-13. A chicane is essentially a lane change feature, or quick turn added to the track layout to slow down the field at critical points. While the Speedway was prepared to add the chicane and start the race on time, one participating team and the FIA refused to allow the change.

Given the rejection of all Michelin solutions, the only option was to advise its teams not to participate in the race with the available tires. Michelin regrets that its tires were not suitable for use in racing conditions this weekend, but driver safety is always a priority. Michelin will never change its stance on this principle, whether we are talking about tires for competition or any other purpose.

Michelin is very disappointed about the way the United States Grand Prix turned out at Indianapolis for the public, the drivers and the teams. It is regrettable that our pre-race suggestions, agreed in conjunction with our partner teams, were not adopted. If those proposals had been accepted, we could have guaranteed driver safety, the participation of our teams and added interest for the public.

Michelin would like to thank its seven partner teams for their close collaboration, for having made propositions to the FIA and for having respected our advice on safety issues. Michelin will continue to investigate the technical reasons for the tire-related incidents that affected Toyota during Friday's free practice.

Michelin North America
Consumer Relations Department

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:01 pm 
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Here is Max Mosley's response from the FIA website www.fia.com:


THE UNITED STATES GRAND PRIX
QUESTIONS TO MAX MOSLEY
22.06.2005


What about the American fans who travelled long distances and spent a lot of money to see a race with only 6 cars?
My personal view, and it is only my personal view, is that Michelin should offer to compensate the fans on a fair basis and ask the Indianapolis Motor Speedway to coordinate this. Then Tony George and Bernie Ecclestone should jointly announce that the US Grand Prix will take place at Indianapolis in 2006 and that anyone who had a ticket this year would be entitled to the same ticket free-of-charge next year. But I emphasise, that’s just my personal view.

Should you not have just forgotten about the rules and put on a show for the fans?
You cannot do that if you wish to remain a sport. Formula One is a sport which entertains. It is not entertainment disguised as sport. But even more importantly Formula One is a dangerous activity and it would be most unwise to make fundamental changes to a circuit without following tried and tested procedures. What happened was bad, but it can be put right. This is not true of a fatality.

Why did you refuse the request of some of the teams to install a chicane?
The decision was taken (quite rightly in my view) by the FIA officials on the spot and notified to the teams on the Saturday evening. I did not learn about it until Sunday morning European time. They refused the chicane because it would have been unfair, against the rules and potentially dangerous.

Why unfair?
Because modern Formula One cars are specially prepared for each circuit. To change radically a circuit like Indianapolis, which has very particular characteristics, would be a big disadvantage to the teams which had brought correct equipment to the event.

Is this why Ferrari objected?
No, Ferrari had nothing whatever to do with the decision. They were never consulted. Ferrari, Jordan and Minardi, as the Bridgestone teams, were not involved.

Why would a chicane have been unfair, it would have been the same for everyone?
No. The best analogy I can give is a downhill ski race. Suppose half the competitors at a downhill race arrive with short slalom skis instead of long downhill skis and tell the organiser to change the course because it would be dangerous to attempt the downhill with their short skis. They would be told to ski down more slowly. To make the competitors with the correct skis run a completely different course to suit those with the wrong skis would be contrary to basic sporting fairness.

Never mind about ski-ing, what about Formula One?
OK, but it’s the same from a purely motor racing point of view. Suppose some time in the future we have five teams with engines from major car companies and seven independent teams with engines from a commercial engine builder (as in the past). Imagine the seven independent teams all have an oil surge problem in Turn 13 due to a basic design fault in their engines. They would simply be told to drop their revs or slow down. There would be no question of a chicane.

All right, but why against the rules, surely you can change a circuit for safety reasons?
There was no safety issue with the circuit. The problem was some teams had brought the wrong tyres. It would be like making all the athletes in a 100m sprint run barefoot because some had forgotten their shoes.

How can you say a chicane would be “potentially dangerous” when most of the teams wanted it for safety reasons?
A chicane would completely change the nature of the circuit. It would involve an extra session of very heavy braking on each lap, for which the cars had not been prepared. The circuit would also not have been inspected and homologated with all the simulations and calculations which modern procedures require. Suppose there had been a fatal accident – how could we have justified such a breach of our fundamental safety procedures to an American court?

But it’s what the teams wanted.
It’s what some of the teams wanted because they thought it might suit their tyres. They wanted it because they knew they could not run at full speed on the proper circuit. We cannot break our own rules just because some of the teams want us to.

Why did the FIA stop the teams using a different tire flown in specially from France?
It is completely untrue that we stopped them. We told them they could use the tire, but that the stewards would undoubtedly penalise them to ensure they gained no advantage from breaking the rules by using a high-performance short-life tire just for qualifying. We also had to make sure this did not set a precedent. However the question became academic, because Michelin apparently withdrew the tire after trying it on a test rig.

Michelin were allowed to bring two types of tire – why did they not have a back-up available?
You would have to ask Michelin. tire companies usually bring an on-the-limit race tire and a more conservative back-up which, although slower, is there to provide a safety net if there are problems.

Is it true that you wrote to both tire companies asking them to make sure their tyres were safe?
Yes, we wrote on 1 June and both replied positively. The letter was prompted by incidents in various races in addition to rumours of problems in private testing.

So, having refused to install a chicane, what did the FIA suggest the Michelin teams should do?
We offered them three possibilities. First, to use the type of tire they qualified on but with the option to change the troublesome left rear whenever necessary. tire changes are allowed under current rules provided they are for genuine safety reasons, which would clearly have been the case here. Secondly, to use a different tire – but this became academic when Michelin withdrew it as already explained. Thirdly, to run at reduced speed through Turn 13, as Michelin had requested.

How can you expect a racing driver to run at reduced speed through a corner?
They do it all the time and that is exactly what Michelin requested. If they have a puncture they reduce their speed until they can change a wheel; if they have a brake problem they adjust their driving to overcome it. They also adjust their speed and driving technique to preserve tyres and brakes when their fuel load is heavy. Choosing the correct speed is a fundamental skill for a racing driver.

But that would have been unfair, surely some would have gone through the corner faster than others?
No, Michelin wanted their cars slowed in Turn 13. They could have given their teams a maximum speed. We offered to set up a speed trap and show a black and orange flag to any Michelin driver exceeding the speed limit. He would then have had to call in the pits – effectively a drive-through penalty.

How would a driver know what speed he was doing?
His team would tell him before the race the maximum revs he could run in a given gear in Turn 13. Some might even have been able to give their driver an automatic speed limiter like they use in the pit lane.

But would this be real racing?
It would make no difference to the race between the Michelin cars. Obviously the Bridgestone cars would have had an advantage, but this would have been as a direct result of having the correct tyres for the circuit on which everyone had previously agreed to race.

Did the Michelin teams have any other way of running the race if the circuit itself was unchanged?
Yes, they could have used the pit lane on each lap. The pit lane is part of the circuit. This would have avoided Turn 13 altogether. It is difficult to understand why none of them did this, because 7th and 8th places were certainly available, plus others if any of the six Bridgestone runners did not finish. There were points available which might change the outcome of the World Championship.

But that would have looked very strange – could you call that a race?
It would seem strange, but it would absolutely have been a race for the 14 cars concerned. And they would all have been at full speed for most of each lap. That would have been a show for the fans, certainly infinitely better than what happened.

Did not Michelin tell them quite simply not to race at all?
No. Michelin said speed must be reduced in Turn 13. They were apparently not worried about the rest of the circuit and certainly not about the pit lane, where a speed limit applies. If the instruction had been not to race at all, there would have been no point in asking for a chicane.

Didn’t the Michelin teams offer to run for no points?
I believe so, but why should the Bridgestone teams suddenly find they had gone all the way to America to run in a non-Championship race? It would be like saying there could be no medals in the Olympic rowing because some countries had brought the wrong boats.

What about running the race with the chicane but with points only for the Bridgestone teams?
This would start to enter the world of the circus, but even then the race would have been open to the same criticisms on grounds of fairness and safety as a Championship race run with a chicane. It would have been unfair on Bridgestone teams to finish behind Michelin teams on a circuit which had been specially adapted to suit the Michelin low-speed tyres to the detriment of Bridgestone’s high-speed tyres, and the circuit would no longer have met the rules.

Have you ordered Michelin to produce details of all recent tire failures as reported on a website?
We cannot order Michelin to do anything. We have no contractual relationship with them. Their relationship is with the teams. However, we have an excellent understanding with both tire companies and with many of the teams’ other suppliers. We find they always help us with technical information when we ask them.

Wouldn’t Formula One be better if one body were responsible for the commercial side as well as the sport?
No, this is precisely what the competition law authorities in many parts of the world seek to avoid. It is not acceptable to them that the international governing body should have the right both to sanction and to promote. This would potentially enable it to further its own financial interests to the detriment of competitors and organisers. Apart from the legal aspect there would be an obvious and very undesirable conflict of interest if a body charged with administering a dangerous sport had to consider the financial consequences of a decision taken for safety reasons.. You can be responsible for the sport or for the money, but not both.

Didn’t this entire problem arise because new regulations require one set of tyres to last for qualifying and the race?
No. The tire companies have no difficulty making tyres last. The difficult bit is making a fast tire last. There is always a compromise between speed and reliability. There have been one or two cases this season of too much speed and not enough reliability. Indianapolis was the most recent and worst example.

Finally, what’s going to happen on June 29 in Paris?
We will listen carefully to what the teams have to say. There are two sides to every story and the seven teams must have a full opportunity to tell theirs. The atmosphere will be calm and polite. The World Motor Sport Council members come from all over the world and will undoubtedly take a decision that is fair and balanced.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:15 am 
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Max Mosley wrote:
A chicane would completely change the nature of the circuit. It would involve an extra session of very heavy braking on each lap, for which the cars had not been prepared. The circuit would also not have been inspected and homologated with all the simulations and calculations which modern procedures require. Suppose there had been a fatal accident – how could we have justified such a breach of our fundamental safety procedures to an American court?

Max Mosley wrote:
Yes, they could have used the pit lane on each lap. The pit lane is part of the circuit. This would have avoided Turn 13 altogether.


Ok, I will say that he does have some good points. I do believe is also is providing his version of the truth. It sounds to me like what really happened was that there was not a consensus on how to punish (rightly so) the Michelin teams for changes to circuit or tires.

But his comments about safety and a chicane (which I believe has some validity, but could have been overcome) is just hilarious when he then goes onto suggest having all of the Michelin cars stream through the pit on each and every lap! Like that scenario has been "inspected and homologated with all the simulations and calculations which modern procedures require". Ha! I see the risk of an accident being quite high if that was done.

If he had just stuck to more sound arguments, I would believe him a bit more.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:21 am 
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Max Mosley wrote:
Why did the FIA stop the teams using a different tire flown in specially from France?
It is completely untrue that we stopped them. We told them they could use the tire, but that the stewards would undoubtedly penalise them to ensure they gained no advantage from breaking the rules by using a high-performance short-life tire just for qualifying. We also had to make sure this did not set a precedent. However the question became academic, because Michelin apparently withdrew the tire after trying it on a test rig.

Michelin were allowed to bring two types of tire – why did they not have a back-up available?
You would have to ask Michelin. tire companies usually bring an on-the-limit race tire and a more conservative back-up which, although slower, is there to provide a safety net if there are problems.

Michelin wrote:
The circuit at Indianapolis had been resurfaced and diamond ground since last year's Grand Prix. Michelin was not allowed on-track testing on the new surface before the race weekend, and therefore had to make many critical assumptions about the new surface, race circuit and its interaction with the tires.


This is what I think is Michelin's biggest problem. If they were not able to have the data, they should have not pushed the envelope as much. Also, the lack of a more conservative tire at the event is a big problem.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:22 am 
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Richard Casto wrote:

Ok, I will say that he does have some good points. I do believe is also is providing his version of the truth. .


Did you read the disclaimer at the bottom about this interview? THe questions were made up by the fia before hand and Max approved weather he would answer thoose. SO yea I would say it is his version of the truth.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:29 am 
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Max Mosley wrote:
To make the competitors with the correct skis run a completely different course to suit those with the wrong skis would be contrary to basic sporting fairness.

Max Mosley wrote:
It would be like saying there could be no medals in the Olympic rowing because some countries had brought the wrong boats.

Max Mosley wrote:
It would be like making all the athletes in a 100m sprint run barefoot because some had forgotten their shoes.


The man loves analogies.

Maybe in the future when people discuss future sporting disasters they can say.... "It would be like that USGP fiasco a few years ago"

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:32 am 
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David Teague wrote:
Richard Casto wrote:

Ok, I will say that he does have some good points. I do believe is also is providing his version of the truth. .


Did you read the disclaimer at the bottom about this interview? THe questions were made up by the fia before hand and Max approved weather he would answer thoose. SO yea I would say it is his version of the truth.


Oh yeah, I have no doubt it was totally orchestrated. But to be fair any public statement like that is (including the one from Minardi/Paul Stoddart). I still think the guy is a control freak and plenty of blame lies with him as well.

Maybe Michelin can provide some cash reimbursement as their penalty and Max can resign (which is not going to happen).

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