THSCC Forums

I know we have a lot of BMW expertise and BMW fans in this club. Over the next few years, I'm likely to be autocrossing a little less and possibly giving up the Vette in exchange for something with four doors and four seats. Yet, I still must have a car that is fun to drive and you know I'll want something that is a fun autox car and something that can do an occassional HPDE school.

After much pondering, I'm considering something like a 97 or 98 BMW E36 M3 Sedan. To my amazement, the sedan has the same specs, same weight distribution, same horsepower, and same weight as the coupe. I even learned from cruising some forums that some track drivers prefer the sedan to the coupe because the central pillars help keep the roof from collapsing. Hopefully, that is not likely to be an issue for me.

Any stories you guys want to share from your personal experience on these cars, let me know. My concerns and conclusions are:

1) It can be a rather expensive car to maintain, especially if you don't do the work yourself.

2) Finding a low mileage example is probably worth the extra bucks. Cars approaching 100K miles seem to start needing a bunch of expensive items.

3) I'll miss the torque. The handling is great, but the lack of power compared to 350 ft-lbs of torque in a Vette will be missed. For that reason, I have wondered about how reliable the Dinan supercharged cars are. Anybody have personal experience or stories about those? There seems to be enough of them around that a reasonable price on a supercharged M3 can be had, if you are patient. I just don't know if I'm biting off a maintenance and reliability nightmare.

Thanks guys. I've cruised a bunch of M3 forums. But, I wanted to hear from people I know and trust.

Miles

Not a bad choice!! I followed the same road.....sorta.



Sedan vs. Coupe is a total non-issue. The racers typically use Sedan chassis to build World-Challenge, ETCC, BTCC, etc. cars for rigidity and better areo (roof line).



This is 100% NOT TRUE. The M3 was no more expensive to maintain than my C5 (less, considering it was easier on parts, in general). If you take it to a BMW dealer, they will charge you $800 to change the pads and rotors. If you take it to any one of many THSCC sponsors/supporters you'll get good work done for the same price as on any other cars. Parts costs are no more than for most Japanese and American sports/sporty cars.



Depends. There are 3 or 4 things that go wrong with these cars that need to be replaced at anything over 40k miles (i.e. water pump w/plastic impeller, radiator w/plastic tank, plastic thermostat housing, see a trend here??). In the VERY early 95 M3 coupes there was a valve spring retainer issue, but that won't affect any of the M3 sedans. Other than those things mentioned above, I don't see any reason to shy away from a highish mile car. I think mine had about 85k on it when I sold it, and I know Jimmy is over 100k now.



Don't be such a Corvette guy....



I found that there are many other qualities of the M3 that made up for the lack of torque. Remember the thing revs forever, has a close ratio gearbox, and is fun and nimble in ways that your Corvette can only dream of (and I came from a C5, with more TQ, HP, and better handling characteristics, stock, than your C4). Supercharged anything that didn't come from the factory that way is never going to be as reliable, or as cheap to maintain as the stock version. So if you are really concerned about (1) and (2) then why go with a supercharger?? If it was me (and it's not) I would get one, drive it for a while, and if it doesn't have enough GRUNT for you, put it up forsale (it will sell, and not lose a ton of value) and start looking for that supercharged car.

Hope that helps.

-Matt

It seems I have been doing a lot cheerleading about BMW durability recently.

Parts are not as expensive as you expect, and aside from a few known issues, they are more durable than you have been lead to believe.

100k miles is just broken in. Expect 200k+ miles out of it with proper maintenance. Motors run forever if not abused (again with some exceptions from 1995, but since you're looking at 4-doors, this won't be a problem).

If I were you, I would look for a southern 100-120k mile 1997 or 1998 car for $12k-15k range. Most cars have been well taken care of, but there are "rats" out there too.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Oh for crying out loud. I sound like Whitney now.

At least I didn't make a spreasheet about how much I liked my M3.....

-Matt

104k and counting miles and runs perfect, on track/autox since Matt bought it at 85k I think. Doesn't burn a drop of oil, and hasn't required anything more than basic fluid changes since I bought it. I even daily drove it for a few months. I have yet to actually have to fix anything at an event. It's typically just arrive, unpack, drive, pack up, go home. Everything I need for a weekend fits in the trunk, so driving its to events is still plenty comfy.

Like Matt said, there's a few specific plastic things to look out for, but basically everyone has done these updates so it's not like it's some big undocumented fiasco you have to sort out on your own. There's about a million and a half websites with pictures and documentation of nearly anything you might want to do to it, and updated parts are readily available. So you can either find a car that's already had these things done, or you can call up Bimmerworld and order a cooling system kit for under $250 which includes a new radatior, aluminum thermostat housing, new thermostat, new metal water pump and even the fancy BMW factory coolant to refill the system when you're done (UPS ground is overnight to here btw) and do the whole thing in a weekend. The only other thing I had a problem with was the cheapo one time use clamps on the power steering hoses. The fix for that was to buy $3 worth of the screw types at auto zone that the whole rest of the world uses and a bottle of atf to refill the reservoir. A brand new set of brake rotors, which last practically forever, for all 4 corners was like $200 also from Bimmerworld, but I've seen cheaper if you care to shop around. I have 4 track weekends, including south course, on a new set of rotors + Carbotech Xp9's and both still look practically new. I've spent a little more money on some fancyness, exhaust, seats and whatnot, but that's just for fun, not required at all.

I will admit it doesn't have the same grunt as a big american V8, but don't assume that means it's not quick. Rolled down to Rockingham a few months ago with a friend from work in his new C5 50th anniversary edition. Granted neither of us are professional drag racer and we were both on plain old street tires, but still I was only about a second off of his 1/4 mile times with probably 80 less hp, and maybe 100 lbs less torque. His car was basically stock, maybe an exhaust and a k&n filter, and the M3 has a some minor upgrades, chip, intake kit and some big injectors, was on stock exhaust at that time. My best time ended up being a 13.9 and hes was around 12.7-12.9. So 1-1.5 second slower, and you're into it for less than half what a new C5 costs (including some change for fun parts), that's hard to beat if you ask me.

Now that I've said all these good things about it, I've surely jinxed myself and something will go wrong this weekend

PS - Yes, I have a spreadsheet about my M3

although a different bmw and different engine i'll attest for the engine reliability.. the 100k should be nothing to worry about.. my 85 535i (M30 engine) had 263k everything original and didnt leak or burn anything.. and the 88 535is i just bought last week runs great at 176k..

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'88 bmw 535is
'98 honda civic ex

Miles please buy the M3 and keep it stock. Rick needs some competition in B Stock.

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Mitch Moore

My M42 BMW has 205psi to 210psi on a pressure check in all cylinders and has 160k on it. Service limit is 168psi. Mine comes with all forged internals, but I'd imagine the M3's do too. Don't pay to much for one because honestly they are overrated(BMW's in general). Engine stuff is the only thing that's been expensive for me so far. Chassis and normal wear items are pretty reasonable.

Hey Miles, why not supercharge a Lincoln LS and do a bit of suspension work to it. That'd be totally pimp .

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2006 Civic Si - #24 HS for 2015

2005 GMC Sierra
1991 318is Garage Ornament

Overrated, huh? So the reason that you keep seeing so many of them on track these days is just because of the hype? Sure...

I think the Renault Le Car is underrated, maybe you need to trade the E30 in for one of those.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

..... BMW's over-rated??

To that comment, I will simply make this observation. At the track events I've done, I've met a number of instructors that have been at this track driving stuff for 15 plus years. And so far, an amazing percentage of them, like 3 out of 4, seem to have migrated to BMWs, and that's after driving a variety of cars earlier in their careers. I paid attention to that.

Miles

Coming from a former E30 318is and 325is owner, if you've only driven a 318is, you might think BMW's are over-rated.

My suggestion is drive a properly maintained E30 325is, or any 6 cylinder E36 model and I'm sure this perspective might change - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Having owned a couple of BMW's let me say that they make better track cars than street cars, particularly the newer ones. As a track car, you care about mechanical toughness, and they have that in spades. Except for the nasty traits of front balljoints made of glass and detachable rear suspensions, they e36s are really quite strong. Now, on a street car, they get expensive. All the niceties that make a BMW a luxury car can be insanely expensive if they go wrong. Power seats and windows are not particularly durable and when they go, they can be very expensive to replace or repair. Door look actuator modules cost a fortune too.

If you were looking for a car that is more track and autocross than street, I'd say go for it, but you aren't. If you were looking for a street only car, my opinion is that you can probably get a better value for street use elsewhere. I guess you have to decide how important the car performs in both circumstances. If you are looking for a dual purpose car with equal weight given to each, you will have a tough time surpassing the M3 sedan.

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Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

Well using that criteria that everyone has one, we can all agree that the Camry and Accord are the very best cars made and we should all drive them.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

As a family sedan/grocery getter where absolute performance doesn't matter, then yes, you are probably right. In their class, the Camry and Accord are far superior to any of the competition.

Of course, that has nothing to do with a BMW M3, since it is in an entirely different class.

Scott

I think somebody Like Miles that enjoys driving a car with good torque would be happy in a car like an S4. Roomy, not a buzzy engine, nearly as fast, easier to make faster, just as plentiful. Really the only issues with it would be the stability management causing brake fade and it's a heavy car.

The reason I say they are overated is the suspension really isn't that great. Strut and trailing arm-woo hoo we copied the Datsun 510.

PS. Rob's driven an M3 before, it was just like my car only faster.

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2006 Civic Si - #24 HS for 2015

2005 GMC Sierra
1991 318is Garage Ornament