THSCC Forums

No dog in this fight (at the moment), but I am concerned...


Already mentioned above, but if the track car consumer is a tiny percentage of the overall aftermarket market, and the impact of this regulation is to effectively shut down that aftermarket. How again will products for our niche hobby get access to aftermarket products, or at least those at reasonable prices. What would be the incentive for anyone to create commercial products for track use?


I get what you are saying, but I am not sure I agree with all of the logic. That argument could be twisted to be applied to about anything that "can" be used illegally. Guns for example.

Also, is there any number on the percentage of the large dollar figure you mention that speaks to changes to parts of the car that the EPA would be concerned about? How much is spent on pure appearance related items vs. parts that impact emissions? Does anyone have actual data for that? I am not saying it is mostly appearance vs. emission, but I am just curious what the actual numbers are. What I am also concerned about is beyond the commercial market for aftermarket parts. But what if you can't even create your own. Imagine if you have a pipe bender, welder, etc. and want to create your own exhaust manifold. It sounds like that could no longer be an option if you are doing this for a car that is not registered for street use if the car + engine started out as a street vehicle?

Will this create or expand the market for bespoke track cars (ranging from something like the Atom at the higher end, to Lotus 7 clones, etc.) which would be powered by engines that never started out life in a registered car (crate engines with documented serial numbers)? When it's all said and done, I would like to see some clarification on these regulations so that it clearly says what is and isn't allowed. I think that long term stuff like this may be inevitable. I wonder what type of rules will be in place in 50 or 100 years for things like classic cars that are still using dino fuel (plus availability and costs of these fuels). Will you be able to drive or track them or will they be museum pieces?

Richard

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

The real question to me is, how big would the actual impact be on air quality in closing this loophole? I'm a bit of a libertarian I know, but if you are going to regulate something, and take away my freedom to do something, justify WHY to me. I find it hard to believe that aftermarket modifications to cars to make more power are a significant contributor to air pollution. Its just something that's done by a small minority of people, so they figure they can legislate it without that group being able to do much about it. Why not require people to apply for a license to drive an SUV (or just a low efficiency vehicle in general), and have to provide a legitimate reason that they need one over a car (or just tax them much more heavily to discourage their purchase)? This would have a much bigger impact on air quality by restricting that market. It would just be politically more difficult to get through. Not suggesting they do this by any means, just stating that they are really only doing so because they think they can get it through with little objection, and its important that those in a position to object due so as loudly as possible.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Especially considering that there is a large percentage of these people that put newer engines into older cars. A modern engine, even with emissions removed is far cleaner than an old 60s or 70s based engine. Didn't SEMA work with GM to release a v8 swap kit that meets modern emission requirements?

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In need of car.

I'm not really a libertarian, although I generally agree with them and vote for their candidates. I'm more of an anarchist, and the EPA, along with most other federal government organizations, is bad and should be eliminated.

That said, the EPA is not going to be eliminated, because by and large nobody cares about my wacky ideas about government, and the rules about changing emissions-related equipment are not changing, they are just closing a loophole that allowed almost everyone to effectively ignore them by calling their car a race car.

This is not a moratorium on engine modifications, just on modifications that make the car illegal for street use. There are 50-state legal headers, cams, rods, pistons, high-flow cats, and even turbo and supercharger kits on the market right now. There are thousands of engine swaps that have been approved. Why do you think that Callaway cars are street legal? They submitted the paperwork that shows that their engines meet the emissions standards of the OEM engines that the cars came with.

This won't stop me from putting an Integra swap in my Civic; I can use stock or stock replacement mounts (including Hasport, etc) and 50-state legal parts. It will be just as legal or illegal as it was before. I can even put an LS swap in my Opel Kadett, because it will never see a public road and nobody will ever care about it. It will stop companies from selling parts specifically designed to get around emissions requirements, which is what happens now and what SEMA is upset with.

This will probably kill some of the smaller players who don't have the knowledge or resources to go through the CARB or EPA approval process, and will raise prices, but there will still be plenty of aftermarket go-fast stuff for all of us to buy.

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"Every ship is a minesweeper, once."

Other than for a small, select group of parts like catalytic converters, there is no EPA approval process. That is part of the issue here. Unlike CARB which has a certification process for replacement parts that are not OE FFF, no such thing exists for EPA. Even the definition of emission equipment is a moving target.

The EPA standard is that the manufacturer has a "reasonable basis" that the part is compliant, which is kind of amorphous, but it does recognize a CARB Executive Order as a "reasonable basis", so a CARB EO is the defacto standard, and there is an established process for getting a CARB EO.

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"Every ship is a minesweeper, once."

Correct, but CARB EOs have no legal standing in states that have not adopted CARB regulations. The point I am making is that EPA has no process analogous to CARB EOs (which were a joint industry and agency effort conceived and brokered by SEMA, FWIW) meaning that your characterization of SEMA pushing for their members to sell parts they know to be illegal is categorically wrong unless you accept the tenant that those parts must be illegal as there exists no process to make them legal. I find fault in the lack of process, not the industry association or parts manufacturers.

Full disclosure, I work for an industry association, interface with regulatory agencies regularly, including the EPA, and represent supplier companies that manufacturer parts impacted by this exact regulatory release. This release is something my colleague worked on. Nothing to do with the subject at hand, but the M&HD GHG stuff that is the real meat of it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but changing anything at all emissions-related is almost always illegal at a state level. Of course with the exception of California, that isn't regularly enforced. The NC inspection standard is that if the requisite pieces (engine, exhaust, cat, evap canister, etc) exist on the car and if (for '96 and later) the ECU says they are mostly working, then it passes. I think that makes the issue of state legality immaterial to this discussion.

The problem that I have with SEMA is their verbatim characterization of the EPA's changes and of their motivation:

"EPA SEEKS TO PROHIBIT CONVERSION OF VEHICLES INTO RACECARS
-- SEMA to Oppose Action as Threat to Modified Racecars and Parts Suppliers --"

The EPA doesn't care about modified race cars. They care about people modifying their street-driven vehicles with parts that are only legal for track-only race cars. As a side effect of that, track-driven street cars will technically be required to comply with street-driven car emission requirements. I'm actually not particularly upset about that, especially as I doubt that it will be enforced at the track, since that's not what this was ever about.

SEMA doesn't really care about modified race cars. We are a tiny fraction of the market. SEMA cares about what brings money to their industry, which is modified street cars. Maintaining the fiction that adding "not for use on public streets" to an exhaust system that eliminates the catalytic converter makes it only for race cars is in their financial best interest, even though they absolutely do know that the majority of revenues for that product come from people who illegally use it on street cars.

Maybe if their press release went more like this..................

"EPA SEEKS TO STOP PEOPLE FROM ELIMINATING THEIR CATALYTIC CONVERTERS BY CALLING THEIR STREET CARS RACE CARS"
-- SEMA to Oppose Action as Threat to Parts Suppliers Profits--"

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"Every ship is a minesweeper, once."

This assertion is contrary to clarifications industry has received. EPA has stated that they care about all certified vehicles. EPA will likely assert (as it has during discussion of off-highway equipment regulation) that air quality doesn't care if the source of the pollution is on a road or not.

The fact remains that without a system similar to CARB EOs, the EPA operates on the principle that everything is illegal because there is no method to show otherwise. That is the same as saying cops get to decide that you are guilty because there is no court system.

I agree with you completely on this viewpoint. I just don't agree that SEMA is the devil. I think you're undervaluing the benefit that SEMA, and even "the illegals" provide to you.



Aren't there laws that prevent people from lowering their cars? They just aren't enforced.


My understanding is that 50-state legal is simply there because 49 states have no real enforceable regulations. Make it CARB legal and you're good anywhere. Currently.

For a comparison, that CARB legal v8 kit costs somewhere around $10,000. While a junkyard version of that kit costs $2000. That's a major show stopper to many people. Of which, most are improving the emissions and MPG of the car that the v8 is going into. Would there even be a sufficient knowledge base/market to do engine swaps without the support of "the illegals". Modern engine swaps aren't possible without the ability to hack the computer, which is the central system of meeting all emissions requirements. Lock down emission based mods and you'll lock the computer, which in turn will terminate almost all modern/future engine swaps.

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In need of car.

Debatable. Street legal (but trackable) and Track only cars are two different things. Is the EPA starting to look at them both in the same way? Can anyone point to clarifications one way or another on that? I suspect the answer is "no" at the moment.


Yes and no. I agree they view this as primarily impacting their bottom line. It doesn't invalidate the concern of those in the racing community. Frankly I don't care who is the messenger or who might be fighting the battle if I agree with the position they are taking.

Richard

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

SEMA asked for clarification and the answer they got was all certified vehicles. So if your car was legally sold in the USA as a new vehicle since the passage of the Clean Air Act and not subject to a sunset clause (of which I don't have specifics) it is considered certified. EPA gave no indication that current use of certified vehicles was to be given consideration.

I think this was in a SEMA PR Wednesday.

Then they need to be using their ALREADY EXISTING rules and laws to crack down on all the not emissions legal STREET CARS. That went out the window years ago in NC when they stopped performing emissions testing -- OBDII cars they simply ask "are you compliant", to which every hacked ECU will say "sure"; non-OBDII they don't even check ("visual inspection".) [and if it's a VW diesel, it lies from the factory.]

The proposed new EPA rules make it illegal to make any modification what-so-ever from the manufacturer certified configuration. This has been confirmed by the EPA and numerous lawyers who have looked at the bullshit. Under the new rules, any modification of any kind to the power plant of a vehicle "designed for" street use will be illegal. It doesn't matter if those modifications meet (or improve) emissions requirements

[Roger pleaded the 5th]

How much can this improve air quality? Since there are no numbers on the volume of non-compliant modified street driven vehicles, who knows. Modified for track use, non-street legal cars amount to very little on the whole. (because there are so few of them, vs. the millions of street cars zooming around every day.)

Of course the EPA has to say that they care about all vehicles. Otherwise they have to figure out which cars are not really race cars, which would be practically (and logically) impossible. Do they really care about a fraction of the market which isn't the problem or do they really care about the bulk of the market which is? In either case, where will they expend their enforcement efforts? I'm guessing on the suppliers, because they are easier to get to and will yield much better results. Hence the SEMA opposition. I'd bet money that they will not be at CMP impounding the Duff car.

Of course SEMA has to say "The government is going to take your race cars away". Otherwise they have to say that this is all about the $, which is not a really great call to arms unless you're a multi-billion dollar industry association.

Junkyard swaps will be no more legal or illegal than they were before. The idea that this will kill crapcan racing is even funnier; I'm pretty sure that no SEMA member is selling kits to swap an E36 powertrain into a Geo Metro. Crapheap racing will continue on as it always has.

ECU tuning could be problematic, but there are solutions.

I'm not saying that this is right or good; I don't care about either of those things. I am saying that this will not kill any kind of racing, or even significantly impair it.

As for making modifications illegal, they have been for years.

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"Every ship is a minesweeper, once."

Doing stuff like that is pretty rampant in the muscle car industry, Camaro5 is full of people throwing long tubes on their cars which remove or replace the cats with high flow cats and people openly post it all over the site.

NC will pass a car with longtubes and high flow cats as long as the OBDII reports it ok just like you said. It's a piece of cake to turn off the rear O2 sensors and for some reason the DMV is apparently completely ok with it. It's even obvious on the sheet print out. You could just compare a stock car report to a modified one and see the difference.

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2017 Autocross Chief of Tech

2000 E Street Miata
2015 Focus SE EcoBoost 6 speed
2015 Fiesta ST (Wife's ride)
2012 Yamaha FZ1 sorta crotch rocket? All I know is 150HP and 487 lbs is fun!