Sad news from Summit Point this weekend

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:08 am

Bernie Baake wrote:

If drivers get together and force tracks to upgrade safety equipment, expect to pay triple the price your paying now. And that maybe a gross underestimation. How many of you are willing to pay $1000 per weekend for an hpde???The sport is dangerous and exciting and the choice is yours to play or to watch. There's not enough money in it for local tracks to upgrade to FIA standards. You can always run hpde's at COTA that's a safe track and it only costs $55,000 a day. Let's see at 125 participants that would be $880 for the weekend. There you go.

Bernie is ready to set his time machine back to the late 1950's and 60's so he can participate in F1 racing like real men did. None of that namby pamby safety bullshit.

Richard

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:10 am

Vincent Keene wrote:

Armco is over-lapped at the seams based on the direction of travel to prevent it from being "peeled back" when contacted at the seam. When you drive the opposite direction you can basically turn the intended protection into a giant skewer.

Just Google info on Robert Kubica's (ex F1 driver) 2011 Rally crash.

Richard

JamesMilko · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:41 am

Bernie Baake wrote:

If drivers get together and force tracks to upgrade safety equipment, expect to pay triple the price your paying now. And that maybe a gross underestimation. How many of you are willing to pay $1000 per weekend for an hpde???The sport is dangerous and exciting and the choice is yours to play or to watch. There's not enough money in it for local tracks to upgrade to FIA standards. You can always run hpde's at COTA that's a safe track and it only costs $55,000 a day. Let's see at 125 participants that would be $880 for the weekend. There you go.

No one here is complaining about VIR or CMP and they have affordable days. IIRC VIR is FIA grade 2 now with their curbing updates. It's inexcusable for a car to hit a tree at a modern circuit. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect tracks to have a hard barrier between the tree line and the course anywhere a car could potentially end up out of control along with some kind of energy absorbing barrier (tires and armco) where a car could hit at speed.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:08 am

JamesMilko wrote:

IIRC VIR is FIA grade 2 now with their curbing updates.

To your point, there is a massive different between FIA grade 2 and grade 1 or 1T as far as track requirements. COTA is Grade 1 and it also has significant facilities. Facilities + Grade 1 = $$$. So yes, it would cost a lot of money to rent a brand new Grade 1 track that is glitzy enough to meet Bernie Ecclestone's demands.

There is clearly a lot of room between between something like COTA and VIR.

Richard

Vincent Keene · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:27 am

JamesMilko wrote:

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect tracks to have a hard barrier between the tree line and the course anywhere a car could potentially end up out of control along with some kind of energy absorbing barrier (tires and armco) where a car could hit at speed.

A simple and cheap triple-deep row of tires could have possibly saved this guy's life at Summit Point. If they can't afford that, they should just shut it down.

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

I was looking at some of the FIA documentation, and it basically comes off as "If it isn't a Tilkedrome or the street of Monaco, it can't be Grade 1". Personally, I'm upset that F1 will never come to VIR.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:12 pm

Andrew Jonell wrote:

I was looking at some of the FIA documentation, and it basically comes off as "If it isn't a Tilkedrome or the street of Monaco, it can't be Grade 1". Personally, I'm upset that F1 will never come to VIR.

Older tracks can and do meet Grade 1 or 1T, but you are right that the specs are crazy. I think they even say what type of paint you can use on the track. This topic comes up semi frequently on another motorsports forum I frequent. Generally the thought is that taking an existing track (that might be well respected by drivers) and converting it to F1 spec would ruin it. And this is without all of the fancy facilities.

Back on topic...

Trees close to track = bad.

Even at larger events this can somewhat be a problem. Allan Simonsen's death at Le Mans last year is an example. The outside of Tertre Rouge has plenty of armco, but there is also a row of trees right behind that armco. His car hit that armco and there was effectively no give as it was right up against a large tree. But Le Mans is effectively a street circuit and they typically have an elevated danger level. Purpose built tracks should be able to be made "relatively" safe without a large amount of effort.

Richard

Rob Keehner · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:35 pm

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Rob,
Summit Point main course isn't anything like that Jefferson Circuit. It looks like they cut a path through the woods to make Jefferson and decided taking down trees wasn't important. Is there some section of Summit main that you think is a particular risk that rises even close to the crazy Jefferson circuit?

At RA are you referring to the jersey barriers surrounding the track and maybe turn 12 onto the main straight where runoff is nothing? At least at RA they use significant absorption material in a spot like that as opposed to leaving a tree nearby...

Summit point has lots of bank where no barrier exists to the woods. There is poor grading of dirt and embankment all around. There are areas where an off can result in 90* impact. It just needs an overhaul in grading, armco, and tires. Better fences would be nice as deer strikes are common.

Atlanta has shit tons of bare concrete impacted in earthen banking. With the high speed nature of the track it posses more risk. Some sections are better than others. Particularly T1-exit of 5 are risky. I've witnessed several significant injuries at the track hitting the concrete. It needs to be softwalls like on a NASCAR oval if not improved in layout. It is unacceptable like kissing trees to have a car strike concrete in amateur motorsports.

JamesMilko · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:15 pm

Here is what I have to say about SP's dirt barriers. A nice controlled off rewarded with a ramp into the woods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3VFvxefmWU

(The car actually raced the next day.)

Rob Keehner · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:31 pm

Good illustration, other areas are straight bank or woods.

I've seen a Spec E30 do this exiting T4 but I think it landed on more tires. Roebling has some similar banks but generally better runnoff.

Bernie Baake · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:34 pm

Ryan you expect that the hundreds and hundreds of tires are free, wrong. You expect that bolting and bundling the tires is cheap, wrong again. VIR charges $150 per bundle that's time and materials, and I believe that's probably what it costs them per bundle from the building of the bundle to the placement of it. Then look around the track and count the bundles. It aint cheap..

Rob Keehner · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:12 pm

Bernie Baake wrote:

Ryan you expect that the hundreds and hundreds of tires are free, wrong. You expect that bolting and bundling the tires is cheap, wrong again. VIR charges $150 per bundle that's time and materials, and I believe that's probably what it costs them per bundle from the building of the bundle to the placement of it. Then look around the track and count the bundles. It aint cheap..

Strapping your helmet on is free and some won't even take advantage of that.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:08 pm

Bernie Baake wrote:

Ryan you expect that the hundreds and hundreds of tires are free, wrong. You expect that bolting and bundling the tires is cheap, wrong again. VIR charges $150 per bundle that's time and materials, and I believe that's probably what it costs them per bundle from the building of the bundle to the placement of it. Then look around the track and count the bundles. It aint cheap..

How much does a good lawyer cost? $150 per bundle of tires seems cheaper than $400+ per hour.

Other tracks seem to be able to afford it.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:03 pm

Rob Keehner wrote:

Atlanta has shit tons of bare concrete impacted in earthen banking. With the high speed nature of the track it posses more risk.

You just need to be better at car control at Road Atlanta! ...like this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZjBRjQuqep0

See, when you have a problem, you "feature it"

Bernie Baake · **Posted:** Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:43 pm

Ryan Holton wrote:

How much does a good lawyer cost? $150 per bundle of tires seems cheaper than $400+ per hour.

Other tracks seem to be able to afford it.

That's probably why you're required to sign a liability waiver. And remember cmp had a similar fatality in 2010 at a PCA event. As far as other tracks, not all of them do. And that was the point I made to begin with. If they do the cost will be reflected back to the users!!

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Sad news from Summit Point this weekend

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