Sad news from Summit Point this weekend

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:03 am

Vincent Keene wrote:

IMO not having any safety barrier between a tree and a race track is near the top of blame for this tragedy. Being honest, sh*t can happen to even the most seasoned student or instructor, so knowing that at some point it WILL happen the track should be designed to mitigate the risks.

FYI, I do drafting work for a well known race track designer. He was asked recently to do some work on a road coarse to allow it to be run backwards. He told the track owners that it was a bad idea, and even if all the run-off areas were changed, the armco wouldn't be safe. Why? Armco is over-lapped at the seams based on the direction of travel to prevent it from being "peeled back" when contacted at the seam. When you drive the opposite direction you can basically turn the intended protection into a giant skewer.

Yikes, that reminds me of a horrible play slide accident many years ago where the installer incorrectly assembled one overlap.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:44 am

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Vincent Keene wrote:

IMO not having any safety barrier between a tree and a race track is near the top of blame for this tragedy. Being honest, sh*t can happen to even the most seasoned student or instructor, so knowing that at some point it WILL happen the track should be designed to mitigate the risks.

FYI, I do drafting work for a well known race track designer. He was asked recently to do some work on a road coarse to allow it to be run backwards. He told the track owners that it was a bad idea, and even if all the run-off areas were changed, the armco wouldn't be safe. Why? Armco is over-lapped at the seams based on the direction of travel to prevent it from being "peeled back" when contacted at the seam. When you drive the opposite direction you can basically turn the intended protection into a giant skewer.

Yikes, that reminds me of a horrible play slide accident many years ago where the installer incorrectly assembled one overlap.

No problem, just don't install armco. It works at Summit Po... oh, wait.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:48 pm

I'll never understand the "Flat Out' mentality that some folks have at HPDEs. But as I have been so thoroughly reminded in the past when these discussions come up, there is no good way to prevent a newb from matting the throttle at the wrong time and place. I myself, in a fit of frustration, nearly had car to car contact in the snake at VIR while in Green Group with BMW CCA.

I was pissed that I was being held back (in my minds eye anyway) and I wanted to get some open laps. I wasn't looking to turn in FTD but the principle is similar. I wanted to up my experience level and traveling at a more rapid pace was what I thought was needed, that and my ego said I wasn't still a Green Group student.

My instructor might have been able to head my stupidity off had he asked me how I felt about being in that group. While he was a very experienced racer I wonder if he was an in-car psychologist. Rules are rules and I was in that group because that was SOP for BMW CCA at the time.

Maybe Green Group passing rules should be expanded to a more open style which in turn might alleviate some of the parade lap style sessions I remember being in as a newb. Instructors should be able to manage upper level passing zones in lower groups I would think.

Maybe Green students should be bumped up to the next level after the first session if they are constantly jammed up in trains of cars. This would obviously mean that run groups would have to be smaller and that drives up the price for entry.

Maybe the instructor should sit in for the first classroom session with their student to open a dialogue early rather than jumping in to the car and trying to size up a student on the out lap as I have experienced on numerous occasions.

If there is a simple answer to keeping everyone safe I don't have it. I do know I couldn't and wouldn't ever be an instructor. I've tried to act as an instructor for my own kid and she does some really dumb shit some times. And with her I almost know what to expect. I can't imagine trying that with a complete stranger.

JamesMilko · **Posted:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:43 pm

Vincent Keene wrote:

Andrew Jonell wrote:

Rob was saying that the Jefferson Circuit has zero armco separating the circuit from the trees.

In thinking about this further, it seems to be a perpetual motion type thing, but with money. If NASA, Lemons, and other renters all dropped Summit Point due to safety concerns, the track would be forced to make changes, or go under. If NASA drops Summit Point they would lose money, and since they are a for-profit venture they won't drop Summit Point, thus the track is not forced to make changes. Rinse and repeat.

I don't see NASA dropping summit point as unreasonable. I don't know a lot about the Hyperfest event, but all of the activities can be done at VIR as well. They would have to find another track that's somewhere between CMP and NJMSP to hold races on though. Thinking about it though I can't name one other track.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:48 pm

JamesMilko wrote:

Vincent Keene wrote:

Andrew Jonell wrote:

Rob was saying that the Jefferson Circuit has zero armco separating the circuit from the trees.

In thinking about this further, it seems to be a perpetual motion type thing, but with money. If NASA, Lemons, and other renters all dropped Summit Point due to safety concerns, the track would be forced to make changes, or go under. If NASA drops Summit Point they would lose money, and since they are a for-profit venture they won't drop Summit Point, thus the track is not forced to make changes. Rinse and repeat.

I don't see NASA dropping summit point as unreasonable. I don't know a lot about the Hyperfest event, but all of the activities can be done at VIR as well. They would have to find another track that's somewhere between CMP and NJMSP to hold races on though. Thinking about it though I can't name one other track.

There is supposedly a track opening up in Bowling Green Kentucky very soon.

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

I want to say that the bigger issue is the non-committal nature of Hyperdrive. You spend $75-100 and you get one hot session on track and one classroom session. I can definitely see how it's attractive if you're curious about track and don't want to spend $400+ on a weekend and all of your time; however, some people see it as an opportunity to put in a hot session and go home. I haven't branched that far outside of THSCC for HPDEs, but there's definitely an emphasis when you're starting out to ramp it up slowly and get comfortable over time going faster and faster. Just having a one-and-done session puts a lot of pressure on the few out laps to get comfortable fast because you just "wasted" 40% of your track time on getting used to things, so you gotta really make the last 60% of the session really count.

This is kind of an aside, but it's been brought up in the past: 1-day students who show up on Sunday. If you're an instructor or in a solo class, it shouldn't really be that big of a deal; however, if you plop someone into green group on a Sunday, there's a massive speed differential between the group who has gotten collectively faster on Saturday versus someone who just showed up on Sunday.

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

steve remchak wrote:

There is supposedly a track opening up in Bowling Green Kentucky very soon.

We can only pray it has a compressive dip that will be named "Sinkhole".

steve remchak · **Posted:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:55 pm

Andrew Jonell wrote:

steve remchak wrote:

There is supposedly a track opening up in Bowling Green Kentucky very soon.

We can only pray it has a dip that will be named "Sinkhole".

That is just plain mean dude. :lol:

RobLupella · **Posted:** Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:49 pm

there was another one opening up in VA somewhere I think near Spotsylvania

BretLuter · **Posted:** Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:41 pm

RobLupella wrote:

there was another one opening up in VA somewhere I think near Spotsylvania

https://www.facebook.com/DominionRaceway

This is the only page I have for this place, they've been working on permits, public hearings, zoning, etc but I think they're in the build phase now.

No idea how it'll turn out.

JamesMilko · **Posted:** Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:50 pm

Looks like they got everything squared away and are planning on being open for the 2015 season.

http://www.dominionraceway.com/wp-conte ... Legend.jpg

Quote:

Open to the following cars:
Race prepared vehicles with competition licensed drivers
Sports Cars can be street legal, drivers with verifiable track experience
No convertibles allowed due to insurance regulations

http://www.dominionraceway.com/racer/track-days/

so much for that.

Rob Keehner · **Posted:** Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:36 pm

I realize that I don't have the best reputation for sane driving. Perhaps that makes my endorsement for not racing at Summit Point or Road Atlanta carry some weight. Be very careful at Roebling Road...

Some of these tracks have had literally 0 upgrades since the last heyday of road racing in the late 1980s. It's time to demand better.

If I can ever get my shit together to road race again I'm fine with 3 tracks to race on without a long tow. My health and equipment are worth it.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:26 am

Rob,
Summit Point main course isn't anything like that Jefferson Circuit. It looks like they cut a path through the woods to make Jefferson and decided taking down trees wasn't important. Is there some section of Summit main that you think is a particular risk that rises even close to the crazy Jefferson circuit?

At RA are you referring to the jersey barriers surrounding the track and maybe turn 12 onto the main straight where runoff is nothing? At least at RA they use significant absorption material in a spot like that as opposed to leaving a tree nearby...

Bernie Baake · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:52 am

If drivers get together and force tracks to upgrade safety equipment, expect to pay triple the price your paying now. And that maybe a gross underestimation. How many of you are willing to pay $1000 per weekend for an hpde???The sport is dangerous and exciting and the choice is yours to play or to watch. There's not enough money in it for local tracks to upgrade to FIA standards. You can always run hpde's at COTA that's a safe track and it only costs $55,000 a day. Let's see at 125 participants that would be $880 for the weekend. There you go.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:33 am

Bernie Baake wrote:

If drivers get together and force tracks to upgrade safety equipment, expect to pay triple the price your paying now. And that maybe a gross underestimation. How many of you are willing to pay $1000 per weekend for an hpde???The sport is dangerous and exciting and the choice is yours to play or to watch. There's not enough money in it for local tracks to upgrade to FIA standards. You can always run hpde's at COTA that's a safe track and it only costs $55,000 a day. Let's see at 125 participants that would be $880 for the weekend. There you go.

Thank you for your input Captain Hyperbole. Merely cutting some trees down and putting in some tire barriers wouldn't cost much money.

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Sad news from Summit Point this weekend

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