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 Post subject: R12 AC system question
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 12:13 am 
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Mr. Nice Guy
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Has anyone heard of this product??
http://www.freeze12.com
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... gory=33543

It apparently is an "R12 replacement" that you can put directly into systems with R12 already in it. The AC on my BMW seems to be a little tired. The air is colder then outside air, but not where I would like it to be.
The thing that is tempting about trying this "Freeze 12" is that you can just recharge the current system w/o first purging it. If it doesn't work worth a crap, I'm only out $40 and I still have to get the system purged just like I do now if I were to convert to R134a.

I've read a few reviews through google, but I'm still not 100% convinced with this products. Seems almost too much like a Slick 50 kind of product :)

-Tom


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 Post subject: Now you suck
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 8:21 am 
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I have a trustworthy mechanic friend who usually sticks to Mac and Snap-On that says for this, it will work just fine:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3952

Anders

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 10:23 am 
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If it's the propane-butane mix R12 replacement (like all of the R12 replacements that I have looked into) - in a word, they're the bomb. Cool great and easy to use. I think I used EnviroSafe or some such product. They are all very similar and just use different percentages in the mix.

Why all the shifty "slick 50" type words? Because they aren't 100% llegal and there seem to be some grey areas about their use and sale.

Plus consider that you are putting in PROPANE AND BUTANE. Think about this and decide if you're willing to accept the risks.

I was. I used it in the street Civic. Worked great.

Tom, I need some more, so if you want to go in on a case, let me know.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 10:53 am 
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So I had this dream last night...
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MikeWhitney wrote:
Because they aren't 100% llegal and there seem to be some grey areas about their use and sale.


It is actually 100% illegal to knowingly charge a system with a different refridgerant than is currently in the system. I'm a Type 1 certified technician for AC.

The above statement has nothing to do with whether the product would work or not.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 11:17 am 
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AndersGreen wrote:
MikeWhitney wrote:
Because they aren't 100% llegal and there seem to be some grey areas about their use and sale.


It is actually 100% illegal to knowingly charge a system with a different refridgerant than is currently in the system. I'm a Type 1 certified technician for AC.

The above statement has nothing to do with whether the product would work or not.


Yup - that's consistent with what I understand. I believe the loophole that shade-tree types can use is this: Purge the R12, fill with R134a, purge the R134a, and fill with R12 replacement. As I understand it, this is legal even for a certified shop to do.

Mike

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 11:30 am 
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I've never heard of the middle part before. You can't mix 'em, and you can't add to a known leaky system (with an exeption for diagnostics).

The main problem is that mixed gasses are nearly imposible to seperate. So
1) you can't recover it
2) if someone does recover it, and then it gets added to a big tank, it will contaminate that tank. And I'm talking about one car's worth making a 50,000 gallon tank useless. Definite downer. Especially with R12 going for $1000 for a tank the size of what you use for your grill.

Anders

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 2:38 pm 
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I have read that if you put this "freeze" stuff into your system you should be prepared to work on the AC yourself, as no shops will work on it anymore.

The system is not leaky and it does *work* now, just not as well as I would like it to. This car had the receipts for EVERYTHING including oil changes, but no recharge to the AC. I can only assume that it hasn't been recharged since '92 and that would explain the less then perfect cooling.

So Mike, did you pull out the R12 out of the system before puting the EnviroSafe stuff in, or did you just put it in with the R12 already there. The latter is what the Freeze 12 product advertises.

-Tom


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 3:34 pm 
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Tom Hoppe wrote:
I have read that if you put this "freeze" stuff into your system you should be prepared to work on the AC yourself, as no shops will work on it anymore.

The system is not leaky and it does *work* now, just not as well as I would like it to. This car had the receipts for EVERYTHING including oil changes, but no recharge to the AC. I can only assume that it hasn't been recharged since '92 and that would explain the less then perfect cooling.

So Mike, did you pull out the R12 out of the system before puting the EnviroSafe stuff in, or did you just put it in with the R12 already there. The latter is what the Freeze 12 product advertises.

-Tom


I used the Envirosafe on a car when I replaced the compressor - so it was vacant.

If you just need a recharge, why not just use R-12? It's not that expensive, and I have heard that it isn't nearly as bad for the ozone as once thought. I think most AC shops will do a simple R12 recharge.

I would only recommend the R12 replacements to anyone who has a completely vacant system and plans to do all their own AC work forever. And please do not use not it on a track car (BOOM!)

PS - Tom, get a gauge on there and see how much it needs. I can help.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 3:41 pm 
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AndersGreen wrote:
Especially with R12 going for $1000 for a tank the size of what you use for your grill.

Anders


I think the street price is about $20/lb based on ebay. Is there 50 lb in a propane grill sized tank?

I think most cars take about 2-3 lb of R12, so call it $40-60. About the cost of 2 oil changes...


http://search-completed.ebay.com/search ... &gotopage=

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 8:45 pm 
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Location: Raleigh
I've used a similar product for recharging several of my cars/ trucks. Works great.

The myths: Indeed its a mixture using propane but you know, standard R12 is combustible too (or so I've been told).

You are hauling around how many gallons of gas??

The EPA reversed its finding on R12 being bad for the ozone layer. they just never removed the ban on its use (thanks Dupont for that!!). Dupont you ask? Well, who benefits from having to buy new stuff for your AC?? Hmm, perhaps the maker of that gas?

As Anders said, that little dull red box from Harbor Freight will work very well to pull a vacuum in the system. Just be sure you have a good healthy compressor. Or, you can borrwo mine and the gauges too.

Ron


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 6:40 pm 
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Onders/Mike,
how much of a testicular cancer risk is R134A??

I've been looking into the R22 version of the Enviro-Safe product for my home AC. While trying to find info, I've run across the cancer risk as a sales pitch for the ESR22.

I didn't really plan on cooling my nads that way, but one can never be too safe.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 8:16 pm 
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So I had this dream last night...
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Location: Oh, just Cary. Innocent little Cary.
Jim Williams wrote:
...Enviro-Safe product... cancer risk as a sales pitch for the ESR22.


Why worry about a cancer risk of a non-leaking gas? Besides, are you still drinking Coke? EVERYTHING has a cancer risk if you get enough of it.

Anders

(If the answer is "well, it *is* leaking" then my reply is "the cancerousness of the refridgerant is not your problem. the leak is. :twisted: )

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 12:03 am 
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Jim Williams wrote:
Onders/Mike,
how much of a testicular cancer risk is R134A??


Dude, WTF are you planning to do, wear refrigerated underwear ?!? Hmm, come to think of it, that would be nice after a hot day at the track. Maybe we should work on marketing something...

Seriously, like Anders said ... there are bigger things to worry about unless you're inhaling R134A to get high or something. Then you got problems :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 10:51 am 
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Jim Williams wrote:
Onders/Mike,
how much of a testicular cancer risk is R134A??

I've been looking into the R22 version of the Enviro-Safe product for my home AC. While trying to find info, I've run across the cancer risk as a sales pitch for the ESR22.

I didn't really plan on cooling my nads that way, but one can never be too safe.


Zero. According to the MSDS, you would have to inhale 50,000 ppm for 6 hours a day for two years, and be a rat to develop endocrine tumors. Ergo, it's perfectly safe.
Quote:
SIGMA-ALDRICH
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET
Date Printed: 05/26/2004
Date Updated: 03/07/2004
Version 1.3
Section 1 - Product and Company Information
Product Name 1,1,1,2-TETRAFLUOROETHANE, 99+%
Product Number 374334
Brand ALDRICH
Company Sigma-Aldrich
Street Address 3050 Spruce Street
City, State, Zip, Country SAINT LOUIS MO 63103 US
Technical Phone: 314 771 5765
Emergency Phone: 414 273 3850 Ext. 5996
Fax: 800 325 5052
Section 2 - Composition/Information on Ingredient
Substance Name CAS # SARA 313
1,1,1,2-TETRAFLUOROETHANE 811-97-2 No
Formula C2H2F4
Synonyms Arcton 134a * F 134a * FC 134a * Fron 134a * HCFC
134a * HFA 134a * HFC 134a * Khladon 134a *
Norflurane * R 134a * Refrigerant R134a *
1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane *
1,2,2,2-Tetrafluoroethane * TG 134a
RTECS Number: KI8842500
Section 3 - Hazards Identification
EMERGENCY OVERVIEW
Caution: Avoid contact and inhalation. Caution: nonflammable
high-pressure gas. Target organ(s): Heart.
HMIS RATING
HEALTH: 1*
FLAMMABILITY: 0
REACTIVITY: 0
NFPA RATING
HEALTH: 1
FLAMMABILITY: 0
REACTIVITY: 0
*additional chronic hazards present.
For additional information on toxicity, please refer to Section 11.
Section 4 - First Aid Measures
ORAL EXPOSURE
If swallowed, wash out mouth with water provided person is
conscious. Call a physician.
INHALATION EXPOSURE
If inhaled, remove to fresh air. If not breathing give
artificial respiration. If breathing is difficult, give oxygen.
DERMAL EXPOSURE
In case of contact, immediately wash skin with soap and copious
amounts of water.
EYE EXPOSURE
In case of contact with eyes, flush with copious amounts of
water for at least 15 minutes. Assure adequate flushing by
separating the eyelids with fingers. Call a physician.
Section 5 - Fire Fighting Measures
EXPLOSION HAZARDS
Container explosion may occur under fire conditions.
FLASH POINT
N/A
AUTOIGNITION TEMP
N/A
FLAMMABILITY
N/A
EXTINGUISHING MEDIA
Suitable: Use water spray or fog nozzle to keep cylinder cool.
Move cylinder away from fire if there is no risk.
FIREFIGHTING
Protective Equipment: Wear self-contained breathing apparatus
and protective clothing to prevent contact with skin and eyes.
Specific Hazard(s): Emits toxic fumes under fire conditions.
Section 6 - Accidental Release Measures
PROCEDURE TO BE FOLLOWED IN CASE OF LEAK OR SPILL
Evacuate area and keep personnel upwind. Shut off leak if there
is no risk.
PROCEDURE(S) OF PERSONAL PRECAUTION(S)
Wear self-contained breathing apparatus, rubber boots, and heavy
rubber gloves.
METHODS FOR CLEANING UP
Ventilate area and wash spill site after material pickup is
complete.
Section 7 - Handling and Storage
HANDLING
User Exposure: Do not breathe gas. Do not get in eyes, on skin,
on clothing. Avoid prolonged or repeated exposure.
STORAGE
Suitable: Keep tightly closed. Cylinder temperature should not
exceed 125°F (52°C).
SPECIAL REQUIREMENTS
Contents under pressure.
ALDRICH - 374334 www.sigma-aldrich.com Page 2
Section 8 - Exposure Controls / PPE
ENGINEERING CONTROLS
Mechanical exhaust required. Safety shower and eye bath.
WORK PRACTICES
Store and use with adequate ventilation.
PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT
Respiratory: Government approved respirator in nonventilated areas
and/or for exposure above the TLV or PEL.
Hand: Compatible chemical-resistant gloves.
Eye: Chemical safety goggles.
GENERAL HYGIENE MEASURES
Wash thoroughly after handling.
Section 9 - Physical/Chemical Properties
Appearance Physical State: Compressed gas
Property Value At Temperature or Pressure
Molecular Weight 102.03 AMU
pH N/A
BP/BP Range -26.5 °C 760 mmHg
MP/MP Range N/A
Freezing Point N/A
Vapor Pressure N/A
Vapor Density N/A
Saturated Vapor Conc. N/A
SG/Density N/A
Bulk Density N/A
Odor Threshold N/A
Volatile% N/A
VOC Content N/A
Water Content N/A
Solvent Content N/A
Evaporation Rate N/A
Viscosity N/A
Surface Tension N/A
Partition Coefficient N/A
Decomposition Temp. N/A
Flash Point N/A
Explosion Limits N/A
Flammability N/A
Autoignition Temp N/A
Refractive Index N/A
Optical Rotation N/A
Miscellaneous Data N/A
Solubility N/A
N/A = not available
Section 10 - Stability and Reactivity
STABILITY
Stable: Stable.
Materials to Avoid: Alkali metals.
HAZARDOUS DECOMPOSITION PRODUCTS
Hazardous Decomposition Products: Carbon monoxide, Carbon dioxide,
ALDRICH - 374334 www.sigma-aldrich.com Page 3
Hydrogen fluoride.
Section 11 - Toxicological Information
ROUTE OF EXPOSURE
Skin Contact: Can cause severe frostbite.
Skin Absorption: May be harmful if absorbed through the skin.
Eye Contact: May cause eye irritation.
Inhalation: May be harmful if inhaled. Material may be
irritating to mucous membranes and upper respiratory tract. Can
cause rapid suffocation.
Ingestion: May be harmful if swallowed.
TARGET ORGAN(S) OR SYSTEM(S)
Heart.
SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS OF EXPOSURE
May be harmful. Prolonged or repeated exposure to skin causes
defatting and dermatitis.
TOXICITY DATA
Inhalation
Rat
1,500,000 mg/m3
LC50
Inhalation
Mouse
1,700,000 mg/m3
LC50
CHRONIC EXPOSURE - CARCINOGEN
Species: Rat
Route of Application: Inhalation
Dose: 50000 PPM
Exposure Time: 6H/2Y
Frequency: I
Result: Tumorigenic:Neoplastic by RTECS criteria.
Endocrine:Tumors.
Section 12 - Ecological Information
Section 13 - Disposal Considerations
APPROPRIATE METHOD OF DISPOSAL OF SUBSTANCE OR PREPARATION
Contact a licensed professional waste disposal service to dispose
of this material. Observe all federal, state, and local
environmental regulations.
APPROPRIATE METHOD OF DISPOSAL OF CONTAMINATED PACKAGING
Caution: no-return cylinder. Do not reuse. Empty cylinder will
contain hazardous residue. Follow proper disposal techniques.
Section 14 - Transport Information
DOT
Proper Shipping Name: 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane [or]
Refrigerant gas R 134a
UN#: 3159
Class: 2.2
ALDRICH - 374334 www.sigma-aldrich.com Page 4
Packing Group: None
Hazard Label: Non-Flammable gas
PIH: Not PIH
IATA
Proper Shipping Name: 1,1,1,2-TETRAFLUOROETHANE
IATA UN Number: 3159
Hazard Class: 2.2
Section 15 - Regulatory Information
US CLASSIFICATION AND LABEL TEXT
US Statements: Caution: Avoid contact and inhalation. Caution:
nonflammable high-pressure gas. Target organ(s): Heart.
UNITED STATES REGULATORY INFORMATION
SARA LISTED: No
TSCA INVENTORY ITEM: Yes
CANADA REGULATORY INFORMATION
WHMIS Classification: This product has been classified in
accordance with the hazard criteria of the CPR, and the MSDS
contains all the information required by the CPR.
DSL: Yes
NDSL: No
Section 16 - Other Information
DISCLAIMER
For R&D use only. Not for drug, household or other uses.
WARRANTY
The above information is believed to be correct but does not
purport to be all inclusive and shall be used only as a guide. The
information in this document is based on the present state of our
knowledge and is applicable to the product with regard to
appropriate safety precautions. It does not represent any
guarantee of the properties of the product. Sigma-Aldrich Inc.,
shall not be held liable for any damage resulting from handling or
from contact with the above product. See reverse side of invoice
or packing slip for additional terms and conditions of sale.
Copyright 2004 Sigma-Aldrich Co. License granted to make unlimited
paper copies for internal use only.
ALDRICH - 374334 www.sigma-aldrich.com Page 5

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 3:54 pm 
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Wes Eargle wrote:
Zero. According to the MSDS, you would have to inhale 50,000 ppm for 6 hours a day for two years, and be a rat to develop endocrine tumors. Ergo, it's perfectly safe.


I was worried until I read the rat part.

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