the anti-sportscar thread

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:33 pm

Here's something kind of off the wall: how about a diesel Mercedes? You can take advantage of the fact that resale value is not a strong point of late model MBs.

http://wilmington.craigslist.org/ctd/3977983072.html

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:39 pm

Les Davis wrote:

MikeWhitney wrote:

I get why fuel economy is important to the earth, and to politicians, and for our future. What I don't get is why people let it weigh so heavily on their micro level requirements. Emotional needs I guess.

Case in point: At 10,000 miles per year, the difference in fuel cost between 30 and 35 MPG is $178 a year or $14 a month. Peanuts compared to the car payment, insurance, or depreciation. I'm with Dick, buy what you want and look at everything from a TCO perspective.

This. Newish Mustang V8s make great daily drivers, torque kicks ass and the psyco-therapy provided by the sound of a V8 is quite a bargain at $200/year extra you spend on gas over a hybrid thing. Invest in yourself, screw the environments.

Interestingly, after a typical workday I want/need quiet. And maybe some music. I find myself becoming more and more introverted as I get older, so "recharging" in a quiet setting is important to me, especially with the family and all that goes with it waiting after work (practices, rehearsals, school functions, games etc). Can't disagree with you on the engine sounds being enjoyable, and I hear torque is nice too! For now, the S2000 meets half of that....

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:56 pm

Karl Shultz wrote:

Here's something kind of off the wall: how about a diesel Mercedes? You can take advantage of the fact that resale value is not a strong point of late model MBs.

http://wilmington.craigslist.org/ctd/3977983072.html

Thanks for pointing that out, Karl! I was under the impression that everything post-W124 was unreliable and uber-expensive to repair out-of-warranty, so I had not included them on the list. Do you think that era of C or E-class is reliable? What are the weaknesses/failure points of that version of E-Class? Certainly ergonomics and NVH engineering are probably its strong suit.

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:43 pm

Steven Carter wrote:

Interestingly, after a typical workday I want/need quiet. And maybe some music. I find myself becoming more and more introverted as I get older, so "recharging" in a quiet setting is important to me, especially with the family and all that goes with it waiting after work (practices, rehearsals, school functions, games etc). Can't disagree with you on the engine sounds being enjoyable, and I hear torque is nice too! For now, the S2000 meets half of that....

I can't tell you how much I agree w/ that statement.... I could get into quite the dissertation here, but I'll just let the statement speak for itself. Damn, getting old sucks...

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:32 pm

Steven Carter wrote:

Karl Shultz wrote:

Here's something kind of off the wall: how about a diesel Mercedes? You can take advantage of the fact that resale value is not a strong point of late model MBs.

http://wilmington.craigslist.org/ctd/3977983072.html

Thanks for pointing that out, Karl! I was under the impression that everything post-W124 was unreliable and uber-expensive to repair out-of-warranty, so I had not included them on the list. Do you think that era of C or E-class is reliable? What are the weaknesses/failure points of that version of E-Class? Certainly ergonomics and NVH engineering are probably its strong suit.

I'll be honest - I'm not certain. My sense is that they're not really any different than something like a late model BMW. Also, I don't think a Mercedes is going to be any more expensive to have serviced than, say, a hybrid Lexus. But it'll probably be more expensive to fix than a Mazda3. Which I would expect - MSRP was probably double.

Check out the mercedessource channel on YouTube. That guy, Kent Bergsma, runs a business selling repair parts and documentation. Is mostly for older stuff, but he just released a big video series about buying a 10 to 15 year old MB. Probably worth a look, if you would consider one that old.

When you described something quiet, comfortable, and fuel efficient, I thought of either a VW TDI of some sort, or a diesel Merc. For your stated budget I bet you could find a really nice CPO diesel E-Class or ML. To me, if your looking for quiet and comfy, the Prius, Mazda3, or Altima are all probably the wrong droid.

clinehall · **Posted:** Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:30 am

MikeWhitney wrote:

I get why fuel economy is important to the earth, and to politicians, and for our future. What I don't get is why people let it weigh so heavily on their micro level requirements. Emotional needs I guess.

Case in point: At 10,000 miles per year, the difference in fuel cost between 30 and 35 MPG is $178 a year or $14 a month. Peanuts compared to the car payment, insurance, or depreciation. I'm with Dick, buy what you want and look at everything from a TCO perspective.

(PS - Unless you think gas will hit $10/gallon, then everything changes)

That makes an interesting political discussion. I think it is the culture that indoctrinates us into thinking so. Personally, I do what makes dollar and sense (pun intended) to me. If everybody did that then I believe technology and the free market system would take care of the problem. That is the short version, give me a dark beer and I will go on forever on how to solve all the worlds problems.

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

Karl Shultz wrote:

When you described something quiet, comfortable, and fuel efficient, I thought of either a VW TDI of some sort, or a diesel Merc. For your stated budget I bet you could find a really nice CPO diesel E-Class or ML. To me, if your looking for quiet and comfy, the Prius, Mazda3, or Altima are all probably the wrong droid.

Yeah, a Mazda3 is a sports car!

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:40 am

BriceJohnson wrote:

Karl Shultz wrote:

When you described something quiet, comfortable, and fuel efficient, I thought of either a VW TDI of some sort, or a diesel Merc. For your stated budget I bet you could find a really nice CPO diesel E-Class or ML. To me, if your looking for quiet and comfy, the Prius, Mazda3, or Altima are all probably the wrong droid.

Yeah, a Mazda3 is a sports car!

I'll second that.

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:19 am

MikeWhitney wrote:

I get why fuel economy is important to the earth, and to politicians, and for our future. What I don't get is why people let it weigh so heavily on their micro level requirements. Emotional needs I guess.

Case in point: At 10,000 miles per year, the difference in fuel cost between 30 and 35 MPG is $178 a year or $14 a month. Peanuts compared to the car payment, insurance, or depreciation. I'm with Dick, buy what you want and look at everything from a TCO perspective.

(PS - Unless you think gas will hit $10/gallon, then everything changes)

I think the main issue is simply ignorance. Using mpg makes it easy for people to make invalid assumptions about the utility of an added mpg. A large majority believe that 20 vs 25mpg is "the same" as 30 vs 35mpg.

It would be more helpful to get around that common error by looking at the inverse, using gallons/mile or gallons/100 miles perhaps. Then people would have to do real math to understand what's up.

You know, like they do in most all SI units countries.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:02 am

I have driven the new 328i with the four cylinder engine over a two day period and was quite impressed. I hammered it for probably 80% of the time I was in it and ended up getting 29 mpg. Normal driving should yield 35 mpg. Power was on par with the 3.0 6 cylinder and I felt like the steering response was actually a little better.

CPOs should start popping up in about a year or so.

clinehall · **Posted:** Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:40 am

Chuck Branscomb wrote:

MikeWhitney wrote:

I get why fuel economy is important to the earth, and to politicians, and for our future. What I don't get is why people let it weigh so heavily on their micro level requirements. Emotional needs I guess.

Case in point: At 10,000 miles per year, the difference in fuel cost between 30 and 35 MPG is $178 a year or $14 a month. Peanuts compared to the car payment, insurance, or depreciation. I'm with Dick, buy what you want and look at everything from a TCO perspective.

(PS - Unless you think gas will hit $10/gallon, then everything changes)

I think the main issue is simply ignorance. Using mpg makes it easy for people to make invalid assumptions about the utility of an added mpg. A large majority believe that 20 vs 25mpg is "the same" as 30 vs 35mpg.

It would be more helpful to get around that common error by looking at the inverse, using gallons/mile or gallons/100 miles perhaps. Then people would have to do real math to understand what's up.

You know, like they do in most all SI units countries.

I have a client that trades cars about every 6 months and constantly tells me how good the gas milage is based on how far he went on a 1/4 of a tank!

Patrice Bousquet · **Posted:** Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:43 am

RodneyWright wrote:

Steven Carter wrote:

Interestingly, after a typical workday I want/need quiet. And maybe some music. I find myself becoming more and more introverted as I get older, so "recharging" in a quiet setting is important to me, especially with the family and all that goes with it waiting after work (practices, rehearsals, school functions, games etc). Can't disagree with you on the engine sounds being enjoyable, and I hear torque is nice too! For now, the S2000 meets half of that....

I can't tell you how much I agree w/ that statement.... I could get into quite the dissertation here, but I'll just let the statement speak for itself. Damn, getting old sucks...

Well, I am the opposite of that, maybe it’s my French Canadian roots or I’m not old enough yet, but at 54 I should be there.
In my daily drive I need something fun to drive and with character and the Abarth is just that.

From the car listed in the OP the Audi A3 diesel is not bad. I had one in 2 occasion when going to Germany and it’s a fun car.
Lots of torque but short power band. It can do 220km on the Autobahn and 9:37 BTG time on the Ring.

Les Davis · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:04 pm **Posts:** 2059

BriceJohnson wrote:

Les Davis recommends a V8. SHOCKING!

I hear a used Saturn Astra is a great car daily driver. . .

Shocking?! Perhaps? But honestly I haven't daily driven a V8 much at all in the past 7 years. My '96 Miata was my primary daily driver from '06 - '12 put almost 100K on it in that time and my '08 MX5 the past year or so and I've already put 16K on it, but that includes two trips to Key West. Lately I've been daily driving a 600cc 4 cylinder, turns 12,000 rpm, runs the 1/4 mile in 12.4 seconds and get 45 mpg, you could call me an environmentalist.

Daily driving that Astra was great at the fuel pump with 32 mpg, what price can one put on ones soul though...

Pete Guthrie · **Posted:** Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:14 pm

golf tdi twin cam. 40 mpg , 250 ft lbs torque, 150 hp.

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:17 pm

steve remchak wrote:

I have driven the new 328i with the four cylinder engine over a two day period and was quite impressed. I hammered it for probably 80% of the time I was in it and ended up getting 29 mpg. Normal driving should yield 35 mpg. Power was on par with the 3.0 6 cylinder and I felt like the steering response was actually a little better.

CPOs should start popping up in about a year or so.

So the new version of the 328i is a 4-cylinder? That explains a whole lot. We had one as a loaner last weekend. The exhaust note seemed all wrong, and the power delivery seemed all wrong, compared to our I6 328i from the generation prior. And the steering wheel felt like it wasn't hooked up to anything. I disliked the car so much that I never bothered to open the hood to see what was under there. :lol:

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