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 Post subject: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:16 am 
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Ok, I am not trying to downplay the significance of the earthquake, tsunami and accident at the Fukushima I power plant at all. The entire thing is absolutely horrible. However as I watch or read news reports, my inner engineer has been coming up with ideas on how to solve the cooling problems. I am curious if anyone else is doing the same.

For example clearly the attempts to drop water from helicopters were pretty useless. And apparently they can’t get regular water cannons very close. For the mobile water cannons I also see the problem that they probably carry their own water supply as well as have a gas/diesel powered water pump (which means they have to leave to get fuel and water, pump might break down, etc.) I was wondering why someone can’t fabricate a number of portable water cannons that can be dropped out of the back of a truck (or even mounted to sacrificial trucks), pointed and then locked into place. Water hoses could also be rolled out from behind another truck at the same time, or in advance and then connected to the water cannons via some type of quick connect system. The hoses would travel a long distance to remote pumps that have been setup as far as way as possible from the plants. These pumps would pull water from the sea. The idea being to run the operation from as far as way as possible and to keep the tech of the items in the danger zone as low tech as possible.

If portable units can’t be placed close enough (due to high radiation levels) to reach the reactor buildings, then can they be mounted onto mobile cranes? Mount the nozzle, hose, etc. to the boom of a crane, drive to site, deploy outriggers, extend boom, aim, lock into position and then connect to the hoses that were rolled out in advance by another team. I don’t know if cranes can hold their positions indefinitely or if hydraulic bleed down will allow them to sag on their own.
If the crane idea doesn’t work, or works but you still can’t get close enough, again deploy a portable water cannon system as close as you can. Connect water hose with significant amount of slack/extra hose. Cannon setup would have some type of hook system that could be lifted by helicopter and then positioned closer (even on the roofs?). If you try to put them on the roof, it wouldn't even need a nozzle that would have to be aimed, but would rather just be some type of "flood" nozzle that sprayed in all directions.

If you want to take it to the next level, setup remote control actuators that can aim the nozzles, etc. These could use off the shelf battery and solar power cells to power these, or you just string out power and data/control cables along with the water hoses. If Mythbusters can hack together remote actuators, I am sure they can.

All of this is on the assumption that you can get water inside via outside methods and that the primary target might be the spent fuel pools which may not have a roof at this point anyhow.

Overall, I just hope there are multiple teams of people in Japan working on “out of the box” ideas right now. Basically someone should be working on ideas on the assumption that whatever they are doing now is going to fail. Parallel efforts to solve the same problems also prevent you from putting all of your eggs in a single basket. When the time comes to try out the new ideas, you just pick what appears to be the best solution from the multiple teams.

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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:23 am 
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I personally think the concrete encasement idea will be the final solution. It has already been said that once sea water was introduced into the reactor that made it useless for the future...IOW it could never be 'fixed'.

The aerial drop idea seems to be the worst IMO. The wind disperses the water immediately since the helicopters can't get real close due to the radiation levels.

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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:16 pm 
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My biggest problem is the amount of drivel that is coming out of all of the news outlets. It's just straight up disinformation.


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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:21 pm 
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Just the simple application of water will not stop a reactor meltdown, it's application early enough could prevent it but once the meltdown starts it's difficult to stop. Add to that fact that the water you apply must be taken away from the reactor before it boils and turns to steam. If it turns to steam and the primary vessel is breached then the steam and all the nuclear radioactive byproducts of the fission process are now carried into the atmosphere. Concrete incasement has its own set of problems because critcal mass fission can approach the temperature of the sun and burn through the base of the building and down to the water table. This is basically what happened in Chernobyl. Add to this the fact that the area is so hot (radioactively) that humans can only survive for minutes in that enviornment. The simple answer is there is no simple answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:54 pm 
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A good article on Ars Technica about the situation: http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/03/understanding-japans-nuclear-crisis.ars

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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:11 pm 
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Yeah, don't think there is an easy answer for the containment vessels. What drives me crazy about the news is that he experts keep saying "This is not like Chernobyl". I think they focus too much on the fact that Chernobyl didn't have a containment vessel while these do. But there is already evidence that one of the containment vessels have failed. So while the reactor design is different I don't think its out of scope to compare this to Chernobyl at some level. And not to split hairs, the Chernobyl meltdown corium didn't reach ground water, but it was a steam explosion (such as you would get from groundwater) plus a hydrogen explosion that destroyed the reactor vessel.

But if they have not already partially melted, there might be hope for the spent fuel pools which I what I was looking to solve.

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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:53 pm 
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http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/

best non-biased explanation I've read so far. The focus is this: the tsunami de-actiavted the diesel generators which would've kept the coolant system functioning after power was lost. There's no risk of meltdown--that term is way overused by the media--because the reaction has been stopped. It's venting/controlling/cooling the gases that is the issue. The solution is to configure a way by which on-site diesel generators can be installed so that they can (a) withstand a 9.0 earthquake and (b) be far enough off the ground not to be drowned in the potentially accompanying tsunami.

edit: Of course, as the facts have been hard to determine given the slow information flow from Japan, there's now this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367684/Nuclear-plant-chief-weeps-Japanese-finally-admit-radiation-leak-kill-people.html

To the engineers: Does the term "meltdown" have proper application when dealing with spent nuclear fuel (as in the reactor #4 scenario), as well as fuel in the reactor core?

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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Daily Mail is an English tabloid. Not saying the problem isn't severe but it's a terrible source for information.


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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:54 pm 
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JamesMilko wrote:
Daily Mail is an English tabloid. Not saying the problem isn't severe but it's a terrible source for information.


Absolutely, James. But the quotes and photos are new "info" that change the scenario...somewhat. All media sources (esp. CNN, Fox and MSNBC) are suspect, capitalizing on this situation for viewership numbers and ad revenue with or without supplying good reliable information--whether by sketchy journalism or mismanagement by Japanese authorities. Personally, the primary issue is tsunamis and earthquakes, not poor reactor design or user malfeasance. While the destruction by the natural disaster is heart-wrenching, there will *probably* be very little effect from the Fukushima situation (except for the 50 or so engineers on the front lines.) except to banish nuke energy as an alternative energy supply for another 50 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:31 pm 
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Steven Carter wrote:
While the destruction by the natural disaster is heart-wrenching, there will *probably* be very little effect from the Fukushima situation (except for the 50 or so engineers on the front lines.) except to banish nuke energy as an alternative energy supply for another 50 years.


Fully agree. Just like 3 Mile Island was here. Almost no impact to anyone and it set back nuclear energy in the US decades. The irony being that the replacement coal plants released far more radiation then the nuclear plants would have.


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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:38 pm 
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I won't armchair this, but I will note the below website as one that has reliably reported nuclear energy news for a long time.

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/default.aspx

This link is a good place to start

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_In ... 03112.html

You will also note that all four Daini facility reactors achieved cold shutdown earlier in the week.

I turned the mainstream media off days ago when the "experts" where using PWR reactor models to predict what would happen at the Daiichi facility.


Frank


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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:45 pm 
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Steven Carter wrote:
http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/

best non-biased explanation I've read so far. The focus is this: the tsunami de-actiavted the diesel generators which would've kept the coolant system functioning after power was lost. There's no risk of meltdown--that term is way overused by the media--because the reaction has been stopped. It's venting/controlling/cooling the gases that is the issue. The solution is to configure a way by which on-site diesel generators can be installed so that they can (a) withstand a 9.0 earthquake and (b) be far enough off the ground not to be drowned in the potentially accompanying tsunami.

edit: Of course, as the facts have been hard to determine given the slow information flow from Japan, there's now this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367684/Nuclear-plant-chief-weeps-Japanese-finally-admit-radiation-leak-kill-people.html

To the engineers: Does the term "meltdown" have proper application when dealing with spent nuclear fuel (as in the reactor #4 scenario), as well as fuel in the reactor core?

The first link is a pretty good article, but based upon the "update" times at the bottom, it is a number of days old. So it doesn't cover much of what is happening now.

To your question about "meltdown", I am not a nuclear engineer, but I play one on this forum. ;) That article mentions this and it seems to be repeated a lot on TV that the term "meltdown" is not really a well defined term and can mean different things to different people. The bottom line is that if your cooling can't keep up with the amount of heat your product you run the risk of a failure of the cladding on the fuel. When the cladding fails you now are releasing radioactive elements. In the case of the Japanese plant this is happening in in the reactors and in the spent fuel pools. What most people think of as a "meltdown" is when this progresses to the point that fuel elements melt and create a lava like material (corium) that flows and worst case eats (via heat and chemical reaction) through the bottom of the reactor and in absolute worst case down into the ground with the resulting steam explosions and spreading of radioactive material!

With that said, I believe that most (all?) talk you will see about this type of meltdown is via a reactor core that can't be cooled. However the spent fuel area contains fuel that (if I understand this correctly) still radioactively hot (still reacting?) and needs to cool over a long period of time (years) before it can be removed from the pool. The pools contain water to transmit heat away from the fuel and to block radiation. Part of this blocking is to allow for people to work nearby, but also boric acid is disolved into this water to absorb neutrons (which slows reactions). I think you could envision a scenario (might be playing out in Japan right now) in which without the water and associated boric acid you can have spent fuel rods who might have a similar failure mode as described above in the reactor core. That the cladding fails, radioactive material is released and if criticality is achieved the heat could increase to the point that the fuel could then melt creating a meltdown scenario. Clearly the problem here is that there is no containment for the spent fuel pools. I think in the US they try to design fuel rods in such a way that in the case of a total loss of water in the spent fuel pools that they cladding will not fail. Also I think they try to arrange the rods in the pool in such a away that criticality can't be reached, but I have seen one mention somewhere that they will allow for some storage optimization techniques (aka try to pack it in tightly) in ways that increase the risk for criticality.

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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:50 pm 
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JamesMilko wrote:
Steven Carter wrote:
While the destruction by the natural disaster is heart-wrenching, there will *probably* be very little effect from the Fukushima situation (except for the 50 or so engineers on the front lines.) except to banish nuke energy as an alternative energy supply for another 50 years.


Fully agree. Just like 3 Mile Island was here. Almost no impact to anyone and it set back nuclear energy in the US decades. The irony being that the replacement coal plants released far more radiation then the nuclear plants would have.

First I want to say I am not a nuclear opponent. I think it can be done correctly. If anything my biggest beef is that this is an industry with no plan to handle its waste, but that is a different topic.

Regarding this disaster, frankly perception is reality. If it is perceived to be a problem it is a problem. I also think it's too early to say it's not going to have a "real" impact. I also think this is way beyond TMI. There is real evidence the containment has failed on one of the reactors.

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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:15 pm 
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I just got this link but it seems to be a very good non-politicized source of info from MIT. It has a pretty recent post about the details of what constitutes a meltdown. http://mitnse.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Armchair Nuclear Engineer and Japan’s Nuclear Problems
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:18 pm 
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Richard Casto wrote:
JamesMilko wrote:
Steven Carter wrote:
While the destruction by the natural disaster is heart-wrenching, there will *probably* be very little effect from the Fukushima situation (except for the 50 or so engineers on the front lines.) except to banish nuke energy as an alternative energy supply for another 50 years.


Fully agree. Just like 3 Mile Island was here. Almost no impact to anyone and it set back nuclear energy in the US decades. The irony being that the replacement coal plants released far more radiation then the nuclear plants would have.

First I want to say I am not a nuclear opponent. I think it can be done correctly. If anything my biggest beef is that this is an industry with no plan to handle its waste, but that is a different topic.

Regarding this disaster, frankly perception is reality. If it is perceived to be a problem it is a problem. I also think it's too early to say it's not going to have a "real" impact. I also think this is way beyond TMI. There is real evidence the containment has failed on one of the reactors.


You trying to be on the TV news too ?

Frank


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