Feedback on Wagon Choices <$8K for the Wife

Chris Halweg · **Posted:** Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:36 pm

I'm looking for a station wagon replacement for my wife's '98 BMW 323is. The plan is to sell/trade the 323 ($4-6K) and chip in a maximum of $3K to get a wagon. We currently have a '94 Volvo 850 Turbo wagon that I picked up really cheap 2 years ago and it has served us well as a family hauler for our 1 year old. It has plenty of issues to the point it's not worth spending money on non-essential repairs. The BMW does not get driven, so it's time to sell it before it loses any more value.

Gretchen loves her 3 series, but it's not practical. She has grown to love the Volvo wagon and if it were in better shape we probably just sell the BMW and be done with it. She wants a sporty wagon, not an Accord, Taurus etc. While I can do many maintenance items I have less time to do so.

'94~'98 Volvo 850 Turbo/T5/R Wagon
Basically she already likes this car. Maintenance can be high and mileage will be high for this old of a vehicle. Finding one in good shape will be a challenge. They tend to be neglected. The good is that I am familiar with most of the issues and would know what to expect. Also, they would be cheaper than many of the other choices.
-----

'99-'03 BMW 5 Series Wagon
Gretchen drove a '99 528 today and reminded her of her 323. She likes solid feel and she thought the 2.8L was adequate. I found it to be more sluggish that the Volvo. I'm concerned maintenance costs would be higher with 5 series wagon. I guessing the 540 would be even more expensive to maintain.
-----

'00-'03 BMW 3 Series Wagon
We have yet to drive one, but it seems like a logical choice based on her past experience with our current BMW 323. I really don't know much how they compare to they previous generation.
-----

'04-07 Mazda 6 Wagon
Have not driven one yet, but they seem to get good reviews. They are just barely in our price range, but we could probably get one well under 100K miles. They don't seem to be to common and a bit of challenge to find. I would expect maintenance costs to be lower and less frequent.
-----

I've ruled out VW's based on past experiences with Jettas. Subaru Outbacks from what I can tell engine reliability issues. I know nothing about Audi or Mercedes wagons.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:55 pm

Considering I owned a well maintained, '94 855T (Turbo Wagon) I can tell you a cheap one or a well maintained one have similar problems. You know all of the common issues: Control arms, Electronic Climate Control issues, strut mounts, vacuum lines, etc... I won't buy another even though it was a very practical vehicle. The maintenance on them and the constant issues are pain and can be expensive, even doing all my own work on it.

The 5 series wagon I think is a decent choice. The 3 series you listed I would like too, but only with a manual transmission. The automatics are fragile, similar to the 850's. I bet the automatic in the 5 series is likely the same as the 3 series, which isn't good, but I'm not sure about tha.

The Mazda 6 Wagons are cheap, but I know a few people with the sedans that have had a ton of problems with them. I would consider an early Subaru Legacy Wagon or a 2000+ Forester. Good utility and size, but more reliable and likely lower mileage than what you listed.

I think for $7-$8k you should be able to find a pretty nice car. - AB

BretLuter · **Posted:** Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:34 pm

E46 3 series or E39 5 series wagons would be a good choice IMHO. My wife drives a 2002 325iT 5 speed and I drive a 2000 528iT auto. We paid real money for her car about 3 years ago, and I got a screaming deal on mine about 2 years ago (with many issues). Both of our cars have highish mileage (~160-180) but are still solid and running fine.

Both cars have pretty much the same engine, so they have the same type of issues (cooling system, crankcase vent hoses/valve, etc) but they are all pretty well documented and not too horrible to deal with in terms of $$. Window regulators are a common failure item in both cars. If you have to take the car to the dealer every time it needs something, then an 8-10 year old BMW is probably not for you, but if you are computer literate (i.e.- you can read and digest the info posted on some of the better BMW forums) and either have a good independent shop you trust, or can do some of the work yourself, you'll be fine with either car.

I would skip the V8 cars and stick to the 6 cyl, mostly for personal preference, but also because the V8's seem to get crappy fuel mileage for not much better performance, plus they seem to have a few additional issues.

I can't comment on the other cars on the list as I know nothing about them.

TomFreeman · **Posted:** Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:55 pm

I have an '00 323it that I've had since '04. I have a little over 160K on it, and it's the best car I've ever owned. Mine is an autotragic, and it did fail at around 60K. I got a replacement under warranty, and have had the fluid changed every 30K since. It's been super solid for 100K miles.

If you do go with an auto, get the maintenance records with the car. A lot of them had the trans replaced, and that's a good thing.

Since you already own a BMW, you know they're not the cheapest cars to own. That being said, if properly maintained, they'll be solid for a long time, especially in daily driver mode. If they've been neglected, they'll be MORE expensive than most cars.

clinehall · **Posted:** Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:51 am

Ok, at the risk of having rocks thrown at me, everytime I see a Dodge Magnum go by I wonder about it. I think it is from being 8 years old and my dad taking me to a Dodge dealer to see some drag racer. They are big and cheap I would think. Anybody know about them.

That said, my nephew got the bmw 5 something of of craigslist in miami and loves it. Of course I always hear about it being in the shop getting something done.

I had a 94 e320 wagon and loved it. Lots of power lots of room reliability was excellent. Mine was a 94 and the rear seats were HORRIBLE. My kids constantly complained about them and when I finally sat in them I felt guilty and sold it. I have heard they improved on that. Don't rule them out.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:52 am

I know its not the advice you asked for but...

at least look at the Mazda 5, we had one before #3 arrived and it ruled.

Reliable
Not Monsterous
Decent Gas Mileage
Sporty'ish
Reliable
Van Doors

Its basically a 3 stretched just a tad. Drives like a 3, not a mini van.

Chris Halweg · **Posted:** Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:19 am

I'll have to check to see if the E46 and E39 both use the same auto slushbox. I would think so since they have the same I6 option. I did see E46 wagon on Craigslist for $2500, but the transmission needed to be replaced. It's something I will have to look out for. Did BMW do away with "lifetime" tranny fluid? The first time I tried to check Gretchen's tranny fluid I was shocked there was no dipstick.

Tom: When transmission is replaced, is it altered in anyway to limit future failures?

I had thought briefly of a Magnum, but only the first year '05 would be available in our price range. I do love the look of them but fear they will have Dodge "reliability".

The wife says the Mazda5 is out. It's too minivanish for her.

steve remchak · **Posted:** Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:17 am

e53 X5?

awd & decent cargo space with the seats folded.

same bugs as the e46s and they may be holding their value too much to fall into your price range however.

my wife had an '06 for about a year. she decided it was too big and went back to a 3 series sedan. i think deep down she has some Honduh running thru her veins. :roll:

TomFreeman · **Posted:** Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:14 pm

Chris Halweg wrote:

I'll have to check to see if the E46 and E39 both use the same auto slushbox. I would think so since they have the same I6 option. I did see E46 wagon on Craigslist for $2500, but the transmission needed to be replaced. It's something I will have to look out for. Did BMW do away with "lifetime" tranny fluid? The first time I tried to check Gretchen's tranny fluid I was shocked there was no dipstick.

Tom: When transmission is replaced, is it altered in anyway to limit future failures?

I had thought briefly of a Magnum, but only the first year '05 would be available in our price range. I do love the look of them but fear they will have Dodge "reliability".

The wife says the Mazda5 is out. It's too minivanish for her.

I am not 100% sure the the replacement trans had updates to fix the issue that caused it to fail, but I believe it did. It has not given me a moment of pause in the 100K I've had it.

They definitely still have the "lifetime" trans fluid. That is, of course, garbage. I have an independent BMW shop up here do work for me, and he strongly recommended 30K fluid changes to keep that trans happy. Though I had the trans swap done at the dealer (warranty), I described the issue to him, and he had seen quite a few of them in the earlier E46s. He said the cars with regular fluid changes seemed to do very well. He said that the e46 had been out long enough he was starting to see quite a few of them in the high 200K mileage range.

The other thing to look out for is the radiator end tanks. The plastic end tanks tend to fail at higher mileage and cause the car to overheat. That being said, I'm on my original radiator with no problem. I do plan to preemptively change that out in the spring. I've already replaced the water pump and the thermostat housing.

Les Davis · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:04 pm **Posts:** 2059

clinehall wrote:

Ok, at the risk of having rocks thrown at me, everytime I see a Dodge Magnum go by I wonder about it. I think it is from being 8 years old and my dad taking me to a Dodge dealer to see some drag racer. They are big and cheap I would think. Anybody know about them.

I've had one for about a year now, its a fun car for what it is as long as you can live with the slushbox which is pretty good for a slushbox. It, like the other Chrysler LX platform cars are basically a poor mans MB E-Class under the skin with a cheaper Chrysler interior and Chrysler engines. The chassis, suspension, transmission, rear-end all are shared with the Mercedes. The transmissions in the V6 models are from Chrysler, and not surprisingly, they have some issues. However, the MB units seem to be pretty solid. Mercedes too has had some reliability issues, but those seem to be coming mostly from the multitude of electronics systems that the Dodge doesn't have. The HEMI engines also seem to be pretty solid reliability wise and are pretty sweet IMO, though the fuel mileage is nothing too spectacular. It does okay on a highway trip but around town it sucks. The car has a good suspension design that handles the 2+ ton car much better than one my expect. I've put the SRT model suspension bits on mine to sharpen it up a bit, you do lose a fair amount of ride quality. The interior is plain, but comfortable and doesn't appear to be cheaply made. The rear cargo space is downright cavernous with the seats folded, and pretty darn decent with the seats up.

Mine hasn't given me any trouble so far, of course I've only put 8 of the 43K miles on the odo so my experience is limited.

RobLupella · **Posted:** Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:37 pm

Ryan Holton wrote:

I know its not the advice you asked for but...

at least look at the Mazda 5, we had one before #3 arrived and it ruled.

Reliable
Not Monsterous
Decent Gas Mileage
Sporty'ish
Reliable
Van Doors

Its basically a 3 stretched just a tad. Drives like a 3, not a mini van.

I rented one of those and agree with Ryan, drives like a 3 has a ton of room. We have a 6 Wagon we bought new in 2005. We love it. We have 4 large dogs and it fits two foldable crates in the back with the seats down. (Only 2 dogs fit unless you ride one in the passenger's lap :shock:

It has good power, it gets decent gas mileage (25mpg or so in the city, 30+ highway driving at a good pace) In 5 years and 145K it has been very reliable only replaced fluids, tires, and a wheel bearing. They are difficult to find since Americans don't buy station wagons preferring the SUVs

Good luck on your search.

BretLuter · **Posted:** Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:59 pm

At the risk of spreading incorrect info, here's what little I know about BMW automatic transmissions in these cars. There are basically 2 versions, not sure if both types have the "lifetime" fluid, but I know 1 does. From what I've been told, the "lifetime" fluid boxes use a special fluid (Esso?) that *can* be replaced, but it's quite pricey and available only in something like a 15 liter jug.

My 528iT has the "lifetime" fill, and I have thought about having it changed, but the price is just too much- I'd rather just run it until it dies and then make a decision about what to do.

I thought we were avoiding the autotragic problems when we bought my wife's 5 speed car, then when the clutch went out a couple of months ago, and I didn't have the time to replace it, we paid a trusted shop ~$900 to do the job. The good thing is, this clutch should last for another 100k+ for sure.

AFAIK, there is no "improved" auto transmission option for these cars. You can try to find a good used one, but they're scarce- or you can spring for a BMW Factory reman'ed box and get a warranty, or take your chances with having a transmission shop rebuild one after it dies.

I think this is one of those instances where BMW will not acknowledge that there is any problem with these transmissions, and they may be right- I just don't have the data to make that call.

Tom- did your car have the "lifetime" fluid? What did you replace the fluid with???

Chuck Branscomb · **Posted:** Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:13 pm

Regarding common issues on 850s, I wouldn't include some mentioned but instead say A/C evaporator (if this hasn't been replaced, absolutely assume it will die shortly -- also, when replaced, make sure they add the Volvo filter kit as originally these cars didn't come with a cabin filter) which is a very expensive (huge labor or a MAJOR PIA if you try DIY). Odometer plastic gears fail, but that's a relatively easy fix via IPD's $25 kit. Other stuff like control arm ball joints, strut mounts, etc, are not unexpected to be worn on a 120k+ mile car. Same with the E46 and E39s -- thrust bushings up front and for the iT (E39 at least) rear subframe bushings are almost always dead by 100k, and when owners replace them, they are shocked at difference.

We've had the 850R now for 15 years...bought it new in Mar of 1996, and it now has 154k miles. In the past 6 years it has only done occasional duty (maybe 2k miles/year average), but we've given it most anything it ever asked for, so everything works, but I have a huge file of all the receipts. The tranny is fine with no issues; fluid was changed about 6-7 years back, and it has never had any issues.

The Volan wheels on the R aren't very strong (bend easily), but they are sought after by the R fanatics. I have them stored (car came with 5, 3 are bent slightly) and bought later model R Pegasus wheels (8x17). Other than those, the only non-stock parts are IPD sway bars and Eibach camber bolts. These cars have 0 degree front camber stock, but I've set it up at -1.5 which works out much better (otherwise they wear outside fronts).

The tailgate is an issue with noise. Volvo came out with a kit to fix the trim mounting, but that only worked for a while. I bought a whole new rear panel, clips, etc, and that worked for a while, and now is creaking again. Typical on all these cars.

The 98-99 V70 wagons were really 850-based cars, but Volvo did a nice improvement on NVH, so those cars are quieter, more refined. If you can find a 1998 V70 T5, with maintenance records, etc, it might be the best of these.

One issue with these cars is trying to judge mileage-based concerns. A car with great maintenance records and 70k miles might actually be less desirable than one with 120k miles but has had all the typical big dollar stuff fixed (evaporator, a/c compressor, control arms, etc, etc).

TomFreeman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:04 am

BretLuter wrote:

Tom- did your car have the "lifetime" fluid? What did you replace the fluid with???

I don't know for sure if the initial fill was lifetime, but that's what the service advisor told me when I suggested it as a problem.

Looking at the receipt for when they replaced the trans, it lists that the trans was a factory reman, and no info on what the fill was.

For the drain/refill at the independent shop, they used BG Synthetic ATF.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

I'm going to be a bit of a naysayer here...

IMO you should re-evaluate your priorities. If I have this straight you:

- Want to buy a cheap wagon
- All of your choices appear to be potential maintenance pits
- You already own one of your potential choices

Grass is not always greener... Option 1 - You already have the Volvo, fix it up. At $8k for any of the options on the list you'll be looking at several thousand to get it up to snuff. Just do so with what you already have.

Option 2 is to spend more, or shop for "cheaper" (less sporty or desireable) vehicles. I recently went through the same process for a wagon for my wife, we went the "cheaper" route and got a PT cruiser with 48k miles for $5k. Hasn't had a single problem in 1.5 years, it stays out of my garage which is great for me.

THSCC Forums

Feedback on Wagon Choices <$8K for the Wife

Who is online