THSCC Forums

Richard, Gwen and I have done varying the tongue weight in an effort to stabilize the trailer. sway occurs when there is too little tongue weight. Too much tongue weight and the tow vehicle will see saw. We've shifted cones forward, mid, and aft (where they normally are) nothing changes the erratic movement of the bus. In reality it doesn't sway like a light loaded tongue, It just seems to wander anywhere it pleases when its moving. when a trailer has too light a tongue weight the sway will get worse as the speed increases, until the tow vehicle becomes uncontrollable. That's really not what the bus is doing. If you drive the bus without the trailer it still wanders... Just not as bad.

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

Don't know if this is relevant or not to the bus/trailer combo.

Our 1 ton Dodge based camper van with open trailer used to be extremely sensitive to crosswinds.

I learned that leaf spring axles with the axle below the springs tend to change toe in the direction of "rear end steer" with body roll. Big rear sway bar and bigger front bar helped.

A new trailer axle without negative camber helped some more. The trailer has a long tongue and as we all know, negative camber tends to make tires "want" to steer. My theory is that the trailer tires were tending to "push" the van sideways at the hitch to "help" it steer once the van even started to steer due to wind or whatever.

FYI the trailer with the negative cambered axle towed like a dream behind my 88 5.0 Mustang. Something about very little overhang behind the axle, Koni sport shocks, low height, etc.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

I haven't driven the bus, but given what I've heard here from those who have combined with Bernie's info on having tried to redistribute the trailer weight (and the info on having tried weight distribution and even sway control hitches, which are always a band-aid IMHO anyway), I'm fully inclined to believe that this bus is inadequate for towing that much trailer. It might be a combination of factors like being on the high end of what the bus is rated for and the bus just being pretty worn in a lot of ways that would be expensive to fix, or it might be over the top, I don't know. Sounds like it's both, really, and thus finding a better bus for this would be fine.

But it also sounds like it's close enough to being in the ballpark that any similar bus that has a heavier duty chassis and any kind of noticeably better wheelbase/overhang ratio would get it done. The same overhang is fine as long as the wheelbase is a couple feet (or more) longer...especially if the chassis is the next step up.


--Donnie

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My Blog

I've driven it down the highway and on not highways. It is a nightmare, thank God the tire didn't blow. Anything causes it to sway. A passing truck, a passing car, a passing bicycle, a passing pedestrian.

Rob

I sent Bernie an email that goes into more detail. But I believe the issue are the tires.

I had the same characteristics when Just Tires put non E-rated tires on the 2500HD and it got a lot worse towing the open trailer.

Oh but wait, they are E-rated tires so my theory is shot. No such luck. I had Discount Tire put E rated Kumhos on the 2500HD. The truck was skitish during normal driving. When I towed the enclosed trailer to Greenville, it was down right dangerous. No moving of the car helped.

Jeb did take those E-rated Kumhos off and replace them with the model I had on previously and the thing towed like a champ.

If that van is acting like my truck did during normal driving and even worse when driving,the club is crazy having it on the road. That is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

It would be great if we could procure a replacement bus by the end of Jan or mid Feb so we can have a bus day to convert from the old to the new. Not a requirement though. Thanks to everyone who’s helping w/ this.

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Rodney

'08 Bullitt mustang, CAM 7
Autox VP '09-'10, President '11-'12, interim President 2nd half of ‘14
proud recipient of the Bowie Grey service award '12
Now just a guy driving a mustang....

To Jim's point, has anyone researched this?

Out of curiosity, is towing the major issue with the bus, or is it something else? I could see where trying something like this, while it isn't a free solution, might be an inexpensive fix to something that surprises me.

This bus should be more than capable of towing a trailer of that size and loaded weight safely, so something like this might make sense. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

And more than likely, if it doesn't work, the wheels with new tires would swap right onto the E450, right? Sounds like something to do since it wouldn't be a waste even if the club gets a new bus.

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One of those LeMonHeads...
91/95 Miata, 02 Focus SVT, 01 Ford F250, 09 Suzuki SV650SF
rusty 84 C4 Vette, tiny piece of the General Lei
Irish Sport Horse - 1hp NA!

Many of the questions raised here were discussed in the prior bus thread, including wheelbase, overhang, and ratios. Plain and simple, the 1.7 ratio of wheelbase to overhang on the E350 extended RV chassis is killing stability.

http://thscc.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10102

Re tires -- they are Kumho e-rated, duals on the back. I don't think it's the tires. Jim I didn't really follow your post, if you can explain more I would appreciate it.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

to add my opinion, the front end is most likely worn out. my F-350 wanders somewhat due to slop (wear) in the front suspension / steering mechanism. 140K hard miles tends to wear on a vehicle.

i think we can all agree the bus is "used-up".

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BenchWarmer Motorsports

another one of those damn LeMons heads

just another Chump

we are an Autocross Club Dammit............

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, nearly all of the Kumho's have blown, or were recently replaced so they wouldn't blow - we saw the trend on those tires and got ahead of it.

We've now been running a "heavier duty" (if there is such a thing) tire as came recommended from Triangle Truck, where we've been getting services done. None of those tires seem to have issues, at least yet, and I'm pretty sure our stability issues haven't gotten worse, or much better, with these new tires.

I think it's safe to say that while the tires could be an additive issue, again, I don't think they are the primary one.

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Dustin Fredrickson
-- I'm a nobody --

Not all E rated tires are created equal. I switched Kumho models on my old 2500HD. The ones that Discount Tires put on made the truck almost undriveable over 45 mph with the trailer.

Not towing, the truck felt like the tires had grease on them. The truck would feel like it was sliding in its lane. It required constant slight corrections. You did not dare lose focus.

When towing, it was a nightmare. You could not tell what was doing the steering, the trailer or the truck. Take one second off and the truck was going to go off the road. The only safe bet was keeping it under 40 mph.

Even passing cars were a cause for concern, not to mention a passing tractor trailer. Best bet at that point was just slow down more.

This experience was towing from Raleigh to Greenville.

What happens is that the sidewalls flex due to the weight of the truck. You compound that when you add the trailer.

Discount Tires put the old model E rated tires I had on before and all was good. The truck had no weight distribution or sway control on it at all.

I was over at Carolina Auto Masters and guy was describing his skittish ride in his Tahoe. He had E rated tires. I told him what I thought it was. He went back to the dealer and exchanged them for another brand and his ride and control were fine.

What tells me it is the tires is the description of driving it without a trailer. Adding the trailer makes it worse.

But what the hell do I know

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Not that I'm volunteering to do more bus driving, but after all the talk of how terrible driving the bus was I was very apprehensive about driving it. However I didn't really find it to be all that bad. Of course my most recent towing experience was a '92 full size blazer towing the vette, now that was unpleasant, rarely a moment of relaxation with that thing. Prior to that, my only towing experience was with fully loaded deuce and half and five ton military trucks towing a giant mobile electronics workshop also packed to the roof with equipment. I think the total rig weight was over 40000 lbs and but they were remarkably stable. These trucks can be purchased at surplus stores sometimes, maybe we should go with one of those for the club?

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'07, '08, '11 Autocross VP
'06, '10 Mike Dishman Cup
'21 MX5, '13 Corvette GS, '92 Corvette 383 c.i. 413whp/390wtq, '03 Expedition

It seems like the seller is giving us a week of trying things out. I know it's cold. But you guys think we can get a mini bus day and try this guys bus? I don't know how long it will take to swap the hitch/trailer over. But could it be worth a shot since there are a lot of theories going on?

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'11 RallyX VP
1998 Integra Type R - track fun
1999 Subaru 2.5RS - dirt fun

Heck even if we don't buy it at least we'll have a 100% answer. (I guess)

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'11 RallyX VP
1998 Integra Type R - track fun
1999 Subaru 2.5RS - dirt fun