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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:07 am 
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Another impressive thing about the new cars is the amount of durability testing that Ford, and I assume others, require new engines to pass. Articles about the 5.0 describe mind boggling dyno testing with all sorts of extremes. Big change from the old days.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:52 am 
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Richard Casto wrote:
I agree. What used to be secret domain or tribal knowledge has become more of a science. That the general basics of "how to do it right" are now down to specific formulas. But that once everyone knows how to do it, you just have to do it just as well, but for less money.


I guess that pretty much sums up the formula for much of China's current success. I was going to get into that in my initial post, but decided not to open that can of worms (but what the heck, this thread is infinitely long already :) ).

On the other hand, we were in Germany back in July, and one of the things we did was tour the Porsche factory in Stuttgart. I was astounded by how much manual labor is still used building Porsches. The Stuttgart factory builds all 911s and the Boxster, and they build the engines for all the Porsche cars/SUV.

Take for example the dashboard for the 911 -- there is a small section of the factory where painstaking hand assembly of the dash is done, using hides that have been carefully screened and cut (also nearby but using high tech s/w to scan the thing and maximize usage). Craftsman (and they definitely deserved that title from watching them work!) use heat guns and soft tools to precisely cover each dashboard in leather, etc.

Similarly on the assembly line, there are portions that require a LOT of hand labor -- much more so than the BMW line in Spartanburg. It moves very slow too allowing careful assembly -- typical German work going on from what I observed: very precise and accurate with great pride in doing a job well. I did note that when a GT3RS came down the line that there was a special process to install the non-glass rear window which required two guys to stop what they were doing and take a long time (compared to typical 911 rear glass) to install.

That said, it was massively impressive to see the whole facility, especially the engine assembly line. The way the parts are inventoried -- complete automation similar to someplace like Spartanburg I assume, how they fill a "cart" with specific parts for the build with a process which prevents mistakes, etc.

So...all that got me to wondering about Porsche's future. If I ran that place, I would running scared of future competition basically taking my feet out from under me while I didn't think it would be possible (and perhaps didn't even realize it until it was too late).

Chuck

P.S. Oh, and the new museum there is awesome. I have a ton of pictures I should get on line from it including the disassembled 917-30 engine display which was really awesome to examine.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:15 am 
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Chuck Branscomb wrote:
Take for example the dashboard for the 911 -- there is a small section of the factory where painstaking hand assembly of the dash is done, using hides that have been carefully screened and cut (also nearby but using high tech s/w to scan the thing and maximize usage). Craftsman (and they definitely deserved that title from watching them work!) use heat guns and soft tools to precisely cover each dashboard in leather, etc.



Chuck, I saw the Nat Geo Ultimate Factories on the 911 and remember seeing this and thinking, wow these guys are incredibly skilled! I really had no idea what was involved to get everything neatly wrapped, but after seeing this I have a new appreciation for the level of detail they use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=339dV6VDou8


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:25 am 
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Matt McGrain wrote:
Chuck Branscomb wrote:
Take for example the dashboard for the 911 -- there is a small section of the factory where painstaking hand assembly of the dash is done, using hides that have been carefully screened and cut (also nearby but using high tech s/w to scan the thing and maximize usage). Craftsman (and they definitely deserved that title from watching them work!) use heat guns and soft tools to precisely cover each dashboard in leather, etc.



Chuck, I saw the Nat Geo Ultimate Factories on the 911 and remember seeing this and thinking, wow these guys are incredibly skilled! I really had no idea what was involved to get everything neatly wrapped, but after seeing this I have a new appreciation for the level of detail they use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=339dV6VDou8


I saw that too a few weeks ago, well worth the time to watch. WAY more manual labor like Chuck said.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:42 am 
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Matt McGrain wrote:
Chuck Branscomb wrote:
Take for example the dashboard for the 911 -- there is a small section of the factory where painstaking hand assembly of the dash is done, using hides that have been carefully screened and cut (also nearby but using high tech s/w to scan the thing and maximize usage). Craftsman (and they definitely deserved that title from watching them work!) use heat guns and soft tools to precisely cover each dashboard in leather, etc.



Chuck, I saw the Nat Geo Ultimate Factories on the 911 and remember seeing this and thinking, wow these guys are incredibly skilled! I really had no idea what was involved to get everything neatly wrapped, but after seeing this I have a new appreciation for the level of detail they use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=339dV6VDou8


After being there and seeing the process from start to finish (more or less), it does give one a totally different perspective on a Porsche -- or at least it did me. I guess that "marketing" part of giving factory tours caught me a bit. :) Overall, Germany is a pretty awesome country to visit, and not speaking but a small amount of German was no problem for the most part.

One of the best parts was this:
Image

:D

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:11 am 
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Chuck Branscomb wrote:

One of the best parts was this:
Image

:D


Too bad that would never work here :(
You could make it to Charlotte from Raleigh in 1.5 hours! I'd imagine zee Germans don't talk on the phone while driving and eating.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:12 am 
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Aaron Buckley wrote:
Chuck Branscomb wrote:

I've seen no real world proof of that, have you? I've spent a fair amount of time in both the E92 and E90 M3, 6MT and DCT, so I don't particularly doubt your statement, but I do know that you have to keep the thing on the boil to get big power out of it, and in typical autocross courses, there are many opportunities for that not to be the case.

I can't see how it could kill FS with the 2011 GT in that class. If anything, it might make the class at least something but a one-car class? And of course take it out of A-Stock where it has absolutely no chance to ever be competitive?


There's a reason why the e36M3 is still in the current CS. While I don't think it can win, it's still competitive and can grab a trophy at Nationals. That's the 240hp 3.2L inline 6. On a lot of courses CS is just as fast or faster than FS. Check out Sololive currently as they are running the same courses.

Now, suggesting the V8 version of the same car, with more wheel and tire (and weight) doesn't really hold water to me. The big reason no one runs them is upfront cost, tire bills and deemed uncompetitiveness. If it were a ringer in the class, they would become popular. I can guarantee that. - AB


I think the M3 should be placed in F-stock. It would shake things up a bit, but my bet would be the 2011 Mustang would still own the class. F-stock as it is now is a 100% Mustang class and without changes will be that for the foreseeable future. Look at the Nationals results this week.

On another subject, one class that is purely incredible is SS. Look at the results from this week where the top 4 cars, all tightly spaced in time, are all different makes (GT3, Elise, Z06, Viper). It would be nice to see a class like F-stock, which is really Mustang-only-stock, have some spice added to its flavor.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:15 am 
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Chuck Branscomb wrote:
It would be nice to see a class like F-stock, which is really Mustang-only-stock, have some spice added to its flavor.

I agree, GM and Chrysler needs to work on their product offering and make the Challenger and Camaro competitive. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:25 am 
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Matt McGrain wrote:
Chuck Branscomb wrote:

One of the best parts was this:
Image

:D


Too bad that would never work here :(
You could make it to Charlotte from Raleigh in 1.5 hours! I'd imagine zee Germans don't talk on the phone while driving and eating.


Last June when I was there I was surprised at how many I saw on the phone while driving???

The Porsche Museum is very good, I went to the Audi also, another good one worth going to.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:58 am 
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Chuck Branscomb wrote:

I think the M3 should be placed in F-stock. It would shake things up a bit, but my bet would be the 2011 Mustang would still own the class. F-stock as it is now is a 100% Mustang class and without changes will be that for the foreseeable future. Look at the Nationals results this week.



All that will do Chuck is disenfranchise a pretty healthy class with a car that costs $25k more.

If the e36 M3 can raw time the Shelby GT, then the e90 or E92 are going to be able to do that to the 2011 GT. The 2011 GT is not significantly faster on an autocross course than the '07+ Shelby GT. - AB

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:32 pm 
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Continuing the thread hijack...

Chuck Branscomb wrote:
I was astounded by how much manual labor is still used building Porsches.

And that is even after they totally redesigned how they do things years ago. It was apparently much worse a decade ago or so. They brought in Toyota at that time and reworked their entire production methodology. I am assuming that Porsche has decided where they want to spend the extra money (i.e where to use the craftsmen) and where to automate. I am sure from their perspective it is part of brand differentiation. Frankly they would consider it a success that you are here on this type of forum talking about how they have people actually building the cars.

I don't have your view in that someone else is going to eat their lunch by doing it cheaper. I guess it could happen if the automation gets that good. If they can build robots that produces the same quality of work, hopefully Porsche will jump on that bandwagon earlier rather than later. I think there is always going to be room for a small niche at the top in which production costs are higher and they still are able to maintain profit margins. In fact, I think Porsche's margins are supposed to be pretty large even with what you are seeing in the factory.

One of the hopes with the VW/Porsche merger was that Porsche would bring their production ideas (and quality) to VW. My fear is that it will flow in the other direction.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Toyota doesn't necessarily preach large amounts of automation. They teach lean, and that is a very different concept. The reason a lot of the operations are still manual is b/c it makes sense to do so. Automation is cool, excpet if it breaks a lot, and requires 3 manufacturing engineers to keep it running. Thats not to say automation isn't great, it is, but it must be flexibile automation, with quick changeover times that is amongst all things RELIABLE. A lot of their processes may be unique enough still at this point that a manual operation by a craftsman still makes sense.

Their main turnaround is in eliminating waste in the production process. Things like rework, excess transporting of goods, excess inventory, waiting. Focusing on making materials flow, kan ban signalling etc. They are REALLY good in these respects. This is really what saved them, and will continue to make them successful.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:17 pm 
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While we're on the topic of production, here's a nifty CBS video about BMW investing only $50k to reduce turnover, bringing defects to zero (I didn't think this was possible), and increasing the mean assembly worker age to stay ahead of the curve. If I remember correctly, they can pop out 1,200 cars a day. :shock:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id= ... 3Dfacebook


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:40 pm 
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Matt McGrain wrote:
While we're on the topic of production, here's a nifty CBS video about BMW investing only $50k to reduce turnover, bringing defects to zero (I didn't think this was possible), and increasing the mean assembly worker age to stay ahead of the curve. If I remember correctly, they can pop out 1,200 cars a day. :shock:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id= ... 3Dfacebook
Matt, you are not very good for my productivity :). I watched all of the Porsche plant videos at lunch and that Bimmer video was intriguing as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:35 pm 
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JamesShort wrote:
Matt, you are not very good for my productivity :).


Haha! It's the off-season for the outdoor playground market and I'm all caught up. I've got my own problems with the interweb usage. :oops:


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